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How to make population and food more useful and realistic

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4 years ago
Nov 5, 2021, 12:07:09 PM

So the recent update has changed emblematic districts and techs that scaled by population, leading many to believe that farmers and agrarian cultures are becoming useless so I suggest some changes:


1. Make building districts require a population threshold. Having gigantic low population cities doesn't usually make sense. Having cities require something like one pop per districts would discourage focusing only on industry to maximize districts which is a current balance issue that make builders and industry-focused playstyles stronger. With this feature, the new district cost scaling could be reverted, allowing many other cultures to build their emblematic quarters in a reasonable amount of time. Cities that have insufficient population would still be allowed to replace their own districts, and infrastructures and public ceremonies won't be affected by this change either.


2. Revamp starvation. Ever get tired of hearing the narrator saying that malnutrition quote right after your city just gained population? If the total food remains the same after growing population from them, instead of suddenly starving right away, how about having stagnation where the city doesn't grow nor lose pop? And this time, having actual starvation caused by reducing food production (whether it be through losing food luxuries, replacing farmers quarters, changing civics, etc.) could reduce stability for as long as the starvation lasts since many revolutions were done during famines. To make it easier, if the food loss is minimal relative to population, it should just be stagnation instead.


3. Add a migration system. When cities reach overpopulation, instead of just somehow consuming more food, they could emigrate to other cities that have influence over them, which most often would be your other cities, but could be others should they have a lot more influence. Agrarian affinity could also have their "Greener Pastures" ability changed to forcing emigration from other empire's cities.  This would also give an indirect buff to aesthete cultures in gaining more population. As an extra, I'd be ok having this added in a DLC that could also include tourism and/or espionage, or a mod if it doesn't.

Updated 4 years ago.
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4 years ago
Nov 5, 2021, 12:29:50 PM

Migration system is nice. Otherwise you can build units and send the unit pop another city, but it's boring micro-managment.

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4 years ago
Nov 5, 2021, 12:49:24 PM

If such a migration feature is added it would be nice to have a civic that allows the player to directly move populations from one city to another city.


I agree these would be nice changes, however I'm more of a believer that the relationship between districts, yields and populations needs to change. Populations need to become far more important to the game in the way of being the key to unlocking yields tapped by districts.

Populations equally should be where instability comes from, not districts. Having populations be both the means of multiplying yields and the main source of stability concerns makes it a self-feeding system, more populations mean more yields, but more populations also means more instability.

Districts simply shouldn't exploit yields where there are no populations assigned to do so. If you have no workers in the workers slots that city should be producing little to no industry regardless of how many makers quarters are in that city - people make things, not buildings. This also organically improves the concept of city specialisation, if you want a city that's very money oriented you need to build market quarters to create merchant jobs. 

It also increases the risk/reward scenario of building large armies, taking away population from cities to field armies means those cities become less productive, you have to think carefully as to whether you can give up some food production to move farmers to workers slots to keep industry moving, or merchants to food to keep populations growing. This equally creates an naturual limitation to the building of large armies.

As for food and growth, I completely agree that the sudden growing to starvation is both jarring and misleading. Cities that aren't producing enough food to grow but are producing enough food to sustain their current population shouldn't be considered starving, but stagnating. Starvation should occur when the food being produced isn't enough to sustain the current population and thus population will start to fall. I would however experiment with a new growth formula oriented around the ability to have food act as a resource similar to money, an empire-wide resource, that cities can pool their excess food into and cities not producing enough food can take their excess food out from, have the silos infrastructure increase the empires excess food cap. Its the simplest form of representing bread-basket cities.

The balance problems around FIMS snowballing is in my opinion as a result of the fundamental way is which yields are produced. And the balance changes so far don't seem to be along any specific design idea. At least the ideas here and above gravitate around the design idea that populations are the key and the limitation to yield production. It also makes headway on the feedback that systems should feed into other systems more.
Updated 4 years ago.
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4 years ago
Nov 5, 2021, 2:02:49 PM

For Starvation, I think a little bit of revamp.


Population usually still gains and drops as normal.  

However, population gains and losses are not reported for cities of 10 pop or more, unless due to the Agrarian ability

Outposts only report when they have 4 population


If a city has a food Shortfall, There is a "Starvation Level"

Starvation level=Population*(1-Food Produced/Food Consumed)   [this number is slightly more than number of pops you will need to lose to get back into balance]

If it is Greater than 2 you have 

-a warning "Starvation!!" 

-Each turn Stability (current not target) drops by Starvation Level*5

-after ?? Turns you lose an additional amount of pop equal to the current Starvation Level.





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4 years ago
Nov 5, 2021, 2:41:07 PM
Krikkitone wrote:

For Starvation, I think a little bit of revamp.


Population usually still gains and drops as normal.  

However, population gains and losses are not reported for cities of 10 pop or more, unless due to the Agrarian ability

Outposts only report when they have 4 population


If a city has a food Shortfall, There is a "Starvation Level"

Starvation level=Population*(1-Food Produced/Food Consumed)   [this number is slightly more than number of pops you will need to lose to get back into balance]

If it is Greater than 2 you have 

-a warning "Starvation!!" 

-Each turn Stability (current not target) drops by Starvation Level*5

-after ?? Turns you lose an additional amount of pop equal to the current Starvation Level.





This solution feels over designed and complicates something that should be a simple mechanic.

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4 years ago
Nov 5, 2021, 2:58:32 PM
Corgiwealth wrote:
K




This solution feels over designed and complicates something that should be a simple mechanic.

Its basically what you said though


3 states: Growing (+1 pop..+1 pop, etc.), Stagnating (+1 pop followed by -1 pop), Starving (-Xpop and stability penalties)

Growing is Food Made>>Eaten

Stagnating is Food Made ~= Eaten (but there will be +- based on the fact that you don't get fractional population)

Starvation is Food Made<<Eaten


If you could get Fractional population (can't be assigned or do anything useful, but still eats food) then you would just need Growth/Starvation


That might be the simpler situation, Cities and Outposts can have fractional pop that they gain/lose each turn... the only thing fractional pop is counted in is the food consumption (for Simplicity)


[essentially the "Progress on the Population bar" is added to actual Population to determine food consumption.]

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4 years ago
Nov 5, 2021, 6:41:47 PM

Ill add on something less related but have been wanting: Pop growth cap should not stay at 1 pop. This already affects the viability of food cultures in faster game speeds where populations are generally smaller due to growth cap, so food is less relevant. This also affects population recovery from building units in the late game, as pop costs for units increase but there is nothing to help replenish pops faster. You would think that the massive amounts of food from the Farmer's Quarters you have will help your population catch up faster, but you're overcapping food by so much that it has basically no effect on pop growth. The growth cap could be made to increase with things like infrastructure, attached territories or techs, while costing more food to get close to the growth cap. This will help make food in the late game more worth focusing on and buff cultures like Mexicans and Brazilians.

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