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[Idea] Remarks about civics (not easy to read)

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3 years ago
Aug 13, 2022, 1:33:44 AM

A potpourri of remarks about some (most) civics, I lack the courage to create separate threads and to get 126 notifications tomorrow:

  1. „Founding Myth“: should probably be unlocked when founding a first city
  2. „Leadership“: going „Autarch“ should grant +25 stability to all cities (the other choice, „Small council“ gives +1 city cap, which in praxis is more often than not a reduction from +2 to +1 or +3 to +2 above the cap, it gives the equivalent to 110 to 250 influence per turn!)
  3. „Political Entitlement“ (choice between „Aristocracy“ & „Republic“): is too hard to unlock. I'd suggest either: 
    1. to make it empire wide
    2. or make it an easier combinaison; maybe 5 districts being CQ and MarketsQ, one having to be of each at least. It seems to complicated however.
    3. or a combinaison of 3 CQ + any type of 3Q, being EQ, MakersQ, FQ or even garrisons or harbors.
  4. „Political Influence“ (choice between „Aristocracy“ and „Monarchy“): see #3
  5. „Republic evolution“: I'd remove the population requirement
  6. „Monarchy Power“: idem
  7. „Aristocracy Evolution“: idem. 
  8. „Oligarchy“ option (+20% Gold from Surrender and grievances): is too situational and needs a buff
  9. „Democratic Republic“ (+1 Science and Gold on CQ): might need to be buffed too, +2?
  10. It feels weird to jump from „Aristocracy“ to „Democratic Republic“ while „Monarchy“ will stay it forever.
  11. „Punishment“: I never, ever got it. I don't go into mutinous state and almost never build city watches.
  12. „Judicial/Political control“: Idem, as they both rely on Police force.
  13. „Capital Punishment“: One more choice that I never have had to make. I'd think that keeping a capital punishment should also be a thing, I'd like a third choice.
  14. „Hard Labor“ (in Capital Punishment): gives a too powerful boost (+5 industry). See #9 for comparison
  15. „Rehabilitation“ (idem): gives also a very powerful boost (+5 food), albeit less impacful.
  16. „Army composition“: replace 5 armies by 5 (3?) military units? At least make it units and not armies.
  17. „Independent people“: seems unbalanced, hiring is less useful and the reduction less sensible.
  18. „Religious tolerance“: seems unbalanced. The +3 influence (Open-Minded) seems more powerful than the +5 faith (Religious hostility) but I may underestimate faith (I play mostly without)
  19. „Unbelievers“: I never had it because I never choose „Religious hostility“
  20. „Irreligion“: needs a thread of its own, as it seems that there are little incentive to pick either „secularism“ or „State Atheism“ and they probably both need to be overhauled.
  21. „Cultural blessing“: might need some kind of restriction. There are too many reasons to get an IP early and getting huge bonuses from it.
  22. „Artistic ownership“: might require too many CQ, especially on small maps.
  23. „Artistic expression“: is of very little interest.
  24. „Foreign customs“: I already created a separate thread about it
  25. „Press freedom“: I would have used the „Movable typeface“ technology as requirement for it, not for „Artistic Expression“
  26. „Fundamental values“: considering the two options given, I'd offer the choice between 3 CQ et 3 Garrisons for the requirement
  27. „Material procurements“: seems unbalanced, as „Trade resources“ gives a bonus to one of the most powerful mechanic in the game (Wondrous effect).
  28. „Isolationism“ (in „International trading“): seems to restrictive considering the bonus given. It has to be increased.
  29. „Worker's Rights“ (in „Working Conditions“): could get a buff to +2 stability at least
  30. „Children's Rights“: If I recall correctly, I almost always get an event offering me to enact one for free.

That's all, sorry if it's a bit indigest to read, to say the least. I tried to give some informations about what does what.
I wish you all a nice weekend.

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3 years ago
Aug 13, 2022, 8:28:35 AM

Okay, I'll bite, although honestly we share most of thoughts here:


2. Agreed, I'm going Autarch only for flavour reasons, it is a useless Civic otherwise. IMO, this could be a wide vs. tall-ish thing, +city cap vs. %FIMSI bonus on capital (depending on amount of cities? Probably not)

11. + 13. Yep, not even if I'm doing poorly. At this point I'd need to purposefully create an awful city and stick to it throughout Ancient Era to unlock it, it just doesn't feel right. It was much easier to dip that low in OpenDev, I feel, and that was only time when I saw that Civic. Definitely requires an update, I'd think just having a City Watch or two would suffice, maybe in the future we'll get Stability become something to actually manage and that Infrastructure line will become important (then again, if that happens then maybe original unlock conditions would be enough... but I really can't see myself allowing it to dip below 30%, it just sounds unreal for a whole Empire).

18. Religious Hostility was an important WS tool, but I don't think it works as intended right now, because I'm pretty sure I didn't choose it and still got to demand conversion out of AI. I'd need to play again and confirm.

19. It's eh. Inquisition gives a temporary Stability boost, Banishment (IIRC) adds enough Money to be maybe even kind of useful early on if you can afford population cost. Both are a bit micro-managey.

20. Secularism lets you drop out of 'demand conversion' game, Atheism is a nuclear option for when no one liked your religion, so now no one will have one. Both should additionally translate into FIMSI bonus on Holy Sites, or translate Faith from Holy Sites into something else (Money for Secularism, Science for Atheism?)

21. That's what everyone's saying and I must be playing the game wrong, because lately I almost never take Multiculturalism and I can't even remember when was the last time I ended up as an owner of IP city...

23. I disagree, it may not be extra, but this is one of the must-have Civics for me.


I'd add Industrial Production to the list, it needs an additional tech restriction (Manufactory Infrastructure in one of the cities?) or new naming convention, because half of the time I unlock it I'm not sure my people would even have a concept of 'industry'.

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3 years ago
Aug 13, 2022, 1:34:34 PM

Thank you for having taken the time. We do indeed seem to share many points of view.


#2 After some more thoughts, I'd rather have it still be stability, but a big +50 and to all cities. That way it could lead to players being a bit more heavy on districts, as the choice arrives very early, and it would therefore help to get more FIMSI, albeit indirectly.


#18 WS tool? I'm sorry, I don't get it. What does it mean?


#19 I was only pointing the fact that it is one more civic some players might not see often (I never get „Religious hostility“ and not always two HS). I can't really judge it. 


#20 I played a bit with „Secularism“ and found it mostly weak. I should try „Atheism“ again. I mentionned the need for a separate thread as many players have had complaints about those two. „Atheism“ seems a bit like „the end of the path“. I don't like it. Switching to „secularism“ feels like loosing too much for too little gain.


#21 It is mostly a combinaison of factors I think. The current scheme is to get an IP city for free (or almost) as a third city. You haven't had to pay influnce for it (even if taken by force, you always need some military at the beginning of the game and it can help with militarist stars), you get to spare also the influence for the outpost creation (safe if you gave the IP one), etc. and then get a new civic that compensate completely for the influence of the first level of the city cap, while pushing towards the World axis. Influence is key in the beginning and the cost of the civic will be reimbursed very fast. Add two more outposts and you gain a +30 on this town. Comparatively, with 3 cities of 3 territories, you are „only“ receiving 18 with „monoculturalism“ and pushed on the axis towards „homeland“. You need 15 territories to compensate a simple 3 IP territory city. And then, you might end up getting a 4th city also from an IP and the „multiculturalism“ things goes brrr.
Furthermore, it give the possibility to get „Foreign customs“ and to pick the too powerful „Cultural Respect“ (see #24 and the reply from the dev).
I guess, it's the full package that makes it require a nerf but it tied with other mechanics (cities should be harder to get from IP - the 0 population city snipe should not exist -, the cost to establish a new one should be lower, the city cap should be tightier, „cultural respect“ should give less fame, etc.).


#23 I'm curious, what do you take and how is it so important?


# About „Industrial Production“: I don't know why I did not include it, I might have missed it. I'd see fit to give the choice between FQ and MarketsQ or even MakersQ, given the name. I'd not disagree to see it pushed to the industrial era, it'd help give it a boost (I don't feel the revolution that is supposed to come with the industrial age).





Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Aug 13, 2022, 3:20:15 PM
Cure_off wrote:

#18 WS tool? I'm sorry, I don't get it. What does it mean?


#19 I was only pointing the fact that it is one more civic some players might not see often (I never get „Religious hostility“ and not always two HS). I can't really judge it. 

War Support, it's supposed to give you a demand to convert, I've used it a couple of times to have a 'justified' war across the ocean, when I didn't have any other grievances to make, nor influence strong enough to start claiming their territories. Not super useful, but helped. And as for 'Unbelievers' one, I know, I was just throwing my thoughts about it into the pot.


Cure_off wrote:
#23 I'm curious, what do you take and how is it so important?

Speed up Stability changes, helps getting conquered cities up and running quicker if I have an upper hand. Slow down Stability changes if I know I'll have to go to war with a large trading partner, to buy myself more time to deal with Stability lost from dropping all the Luxuries. I'm not saying it's top of the list, but I rest easier when I have this one in my pocket.

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3 years ago
Aug 13, 2022, 3:38:24 PM

#18 Should have had it... Did not see the link at first.

#19 The post is there for that.

#23 Got it, thanks.

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3 years ago
Aug 13, 2022, 3:58:16 PM
Cure_off wrote:


#2 After some more thoughts, I'd rather have it still be stability, but a big +50 and to all cities. That way it could lead to players being a bit more heavy on districts, as the choice arrives very early, and it would therefore help to get more FIMSI, albeit indirectly.

+50 stability on all cities would be OP, +20 stability on capital and +10% FIMS on capital should be fine

Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Aug 13, 2022, 5:49:59 PM

If you want to see #2 changes, I would rather see a 60 Stability divided by cities for all cities. Which makes it good on a few or single cities play, but gets less bite the more cities you have.

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3 years ago
Aug 14, 2022, 1:38:28 AM

Is 50 stability that much? Would you take it instead of a +1 on city cap? With the current meta of small cities, a +10% on only of the cities would be a meager bonus compared to one more complete city (so 100% yields).

I don't like the stability split, it means the bonus will become very small after few dozens of turns while the +1 on the city cap, if less useful too after some turns, would stay really interesting.


At least everybody seems to agree that #2 needs a buff.

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3 years ago
Aug 16, 2022, 10:44:57 AM

Holaa!
Thanks for the thread, super interesting all the different suggestions on the matter. I will keep an eye on it :P
Not promises, but I can say that is in our list to balance/improve

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3 years ago
Aug 16, 2022, 12:33:39 PM

The biggest areas that need work are the government civics and judicial civics.  


I definitely agree with all the Autarch criticism.  An extra city is wayyy better than the small stability boost.  If it's a tall vs wide theme, Autarch need a percentage yield boost on capital to keep up.  However, the governments that the Autarch branches off into are also wayyy better than the ones small council branches off to.  Maybe that's by design and offers incentive to bite the bullet and take Autarch?  I typically start with small council and then switch to Autarch in the early midgame so I can go get Monarchy and then Constituation Monarchy, which is by far the best route imo, or at least for my play style since I buyout a ton of districts.  


The Aristocracy civics are OK but the Rupublic/Democracy ones are just really underwhelming.  A combat boost to militia is just a little too situational. And +1 Sci and $ on CQ's might as well be nothing.


As for the judicial, as mention here and elsewhere the requirement for the Punishment civic need to be reworked.  I have never seen that civic in any game and never will until it's changed.

Updated 3 years ago.
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