To be clear:

- This thread is based on my last game of Humankind in version [1.0.20.3629], I wouldn't know about any changes made in later versions as I left the game since then.

- This thread doesn't include late game stealth issues (missiles, air units etc...).

- In this thread, I will try to sum the problems I had with stealth implementation in the game but I will avoid quality of life and UI issues as fixing them before fixing the system they serve is a waste of effort.

- This thread is quite long. For a shorter version, read only the blueish lines until you feel the need for more explanation, then you can read the rest.

Before I start, I want to describe what I think stealth should represent in games: Stealth basically adds more to what you know about the situation than what your opponent knows (pardon my bad wording).. It gives you the advantage of knowing things that your opponent doesn't know or things they don't know that you know.. you know :) ..

For examples in game terms:

- You have a hidden army close by that your opponent doesn't know about.

- Or that your opponent thinks that you don't know about their armies hiding away in some fog of war while you actually know because you sent stealth scouts there already.. and so on.

Hence, I think information is more important in a game when it has a stealth component added to it. So, as a rule (R1): you shouldn't see in the game's UI what you shouldn't know about. If you don't accept the logic of this rule, I suggest you stop reading the thread and instead write a comment explaining why you don't accept it.

I also want to say a few things:
1. I understand that the current stealth system of the game (detection and stealth meter) is more suitable to the game than the old system where you see hidden armies just for being adjacent, but It is where things get complicated and it adds problems when it is not thorough enough.

2. I am not the only one affected by these problems or offering these suggestions, I saw posts about the same or similar to most of these one at a time. I am putting these all in one post as I think they all affect each other as one stealth concept.

3. This is not a simple topic, so it may very much not have simple solutions, expect some overhauls.

4. These problems and suggested changes are not in any order as some problems have multiple changes affecting it and some changes can affect multiple problems. Some changes will even create problems which will have other changes to fix them.

5. While I was thinking of solutions since the stealth update, and trying to find alternative ways to do things, I understood more the difficulty of fixing the system on the devs. But I still wish the stealth update wasn't rushed into the game until it was better and playable. Maybe it should have been a Beta update for players to test or a separate free expansion content that can be played by those who like to experiment new concepts and fix their issues while keeping the option to be turned off by those who don't and just want to play.

Problems:

(P1): Ambushes are out of control.

When your hidden armies ambush everyone passing by, they:

1. reveal their location (even if they keep their stealth meter intact on a win which doesn't make a lot of sense itself).

2. generate a grievance against you whether you wanted this attack or not.

(P2): Stealth agents get interrupted while doing actions when any opponent's army comes onto their tile. This is most common when your agent is siphoning the opponent's city center for high influence and the opponent just makes a new unit throwing your agent out. Or when your otherwise busy stealth agent ambushes a passing opponent's army, leaving their important action (siphoning for example) to attack a very unrelated target instead.

(P3): Stealth armies cannot regenerate stealth if the territory has at least 1 detection no matter how strong their stealth capabilities and regeneration are.

This is not really realistic and makes revealing stealth armies as easy as putting 1 detection army in every territory. Also, making stealth regeneration more of a hassle than it needs to be.

(P4): Espionage layout - Hostile Detection screen is oversharing information.

Whether you are trying to sneak or detect, that screen has problems. The screen shows the detection of opponents in a territory which basically uncovers the existence of opponent forces in the territory whether they are stealth or just hiding in fog of war which either way breaks rule R1. Breaking the rule generates multiple problems:
1. If you are hunting an opponent's stealth armies, you can use this screen to know which territory they ran off to and catch up.

2. If you are sneaking into a territory, you shouldn't know what armies are there so you shouldn't know what the detection level there is either until you uncover the detection's source (army or garrison with infrastructure etc...).

I am not objecting here to the existence of the screen as UI but more objecting to the data it shows.

Suggested Changes and their Dependent Problems:

First, I think the stealth in the game is a mix of two systems that shouldn't work together, so we need to choose one. hence the first change:

(C1): Unify the concept of stealth to either:

(C1a): A stealth meter that is decreased every turn by detection. (This is related to P3) I won't explain this as this is what the game officially uses and explains. but I think it was mixed by concept C1b in some parts creating some of the problems.

(C1b): A stealth level that is only countered by detection of the same level. (This is ignored for P5) This concept is where a unit of detection level 3 can only detect units of stealth levels 3 and lower, not affecting any higher level stealth units as they use higher stealth technology than what the low level detection techniques can detect. This concept probably has many problems and will break the balance between stealth and detection, for example with the following problem P5:

(P5): Using the concept C1b will break the balance - at least at the end of the game - whether by (P5a): making stealth reach levels that cannot be countered by highest detection or by (P5b): making detection level always catch up to level of stealth causing stealth units to eventually become obsolete as they will always be countered with high enough level of detection. (This is dependent on C1b)

(C2): Change ambush into an action and probably also limit ambush triggers to enemy - At war - armies only. (This is related to P1 & P2) This clearly gives us more control over our ambushes whether we all decide that the action to be instant or that it needs a period of preparations (loading turns). On the other hand, this change will create situations with the following problem P6:

(P6): Another army may want to join the same tile as your stealth army. (This is dependent on C2) With the current instant ambushing removed by C2, this will just reveal your stealth army and basically sets us back to the old stealth system before the stealth update. To fix this we have the change C3.

(C3): Allow armies to join the same tile as other armies. (This is related to P1 & P2 & C2 & P6) Basically any army that would normally pass through another army without attacking it should be able to join the same tile with it (Probably a major game structure and UI change here), whether because the two armies' empires are allied or even have a non-aggression pact or just because one of the two armies is a hidden stealth army (or even if the two armies are from the same empire? why not?). This comparison/check will be applied to all armies already on the tile from different empires. You may think this may be exploited by allies or that it may render the unit cap of armies obsolete, but it really doesn't as they will still reinforce each other in a fight anyway - if they are eligible to reinforce normally - and they would still benefit of the high unit cap per army for saving upkeep as normal, for financial purposes and for non-reinforced situations like retreating for example. On the other hand, this change will create situations with the following problem P7:

(P7): There is probably no way to secure/bulletproof a tile against any espionage no matter what you are willing to sacrifice/pay for it. (This is dependent on C3)

Currently, You could just put an army on a tile to stop opponent stealth agents from accessing it for any action. But with allowing multiple armies on the same tile by the change C3, you still need to be able to counter opponent's agents in each era even if you have to pay a price in return. To fix this we have the change C5.

(C4): Change the detection calculations from "Per Territory" to "Per Tile". (This is related to R1 & C1a & C3 & P3 & P4) While this is more micro management which the game generally tries to avoid, it is necessary. In the same way fog of war is applied per tile and dependent on vision range of units and not per territory, detection should as well have a limited range of tiles that limits its effect. This also follows the rule R1 and its realism. As an example, How would you detect and identify a human as a spy in your country if you don't even see them or follow their actions because they are far away.

(C5): To allow securing positions against espionage, I see one of two ways:

(C5a): Change the detection calculations from "Max" to "Sum". (This is related to P7 & C4) This means that the detection against a tile is the sum of all detection of units/districts seeing/detecting this tile instead of using the max detection number per territory which makes all other units/buildings useless. This change allows increasing detection in important areas at the cost of units and their upkeeps. That does not make detection easier as much as you may think because we changed the detection from "Per Territory" to "Per Tile" in change C4 so you would need more armies to cover more areas, so it is still not cheap and doesn't make stealth obsolete, on the contrary, it is more of a permanent threat that you pay upkeep and waste army activities just to counter and detect it.

(C5b): Change the max stealth number on stealth units of each era to always be counter by the best detection unit of that era. (This is similar to C1b) (This is ignored for P5b) Basically we change the max stealth and best detection of each era so that one strong detection unit is enough to detect any enemy's stealth unit before it can finish even the fastest action. But as you can see, even though that change follows the concept of C1a in calculating stealth and detection mathematically, it is actually just another form of the concept C1b and causes the same problem P5b as it will make stealth units obsolete at some point.

(C6): Change stealth regeneration in tiles being detected from "Zero" to "Delta Stealth Regeneration" which equals (unit's own stealth regeneration - opponents' detection sum). (This is related to P3) This allows stealth regeneration for strong stealth units even when they are being detected by weak detection and they don't have to keep running away to regenerate stealth.

(C7): A successful ambush should still deplete an army's stealth. (This is related to P1 & C2) Since your army revealed itself to ambush an enemy army, it should be unveiled, losing all its stealth. This is now more required than before since we changed the ambush to be by choice in C2 so losing stealth should be a price to pay for choosing that ambush until it can regenerate stealth next turn.

(C8): Better apply the rule R1. (This is related to R1 & P4) Following the rule R1, your stealth units shouldn't know the existence of any opponent forces trying to detect them unless your armies actually see those forces. Whether those forces are an army with detection or a garrison with detecting infrastructure or even a satellite base (Yes, why not (C9): Add detection on satellites which applies on each tile they reveal on the map (This is dependent on R1 & C6 & C8a, Contradicts with C8b)?).

Now, Whether you see those detecting forces is a yes/no question, for examples:

1. if the opponent's army has more vision/detection range than yours (maybe you are embarked even).

2. or if it is up a cliff from you that you can't see it. but it can see you.

3. or if it is another hidden stealth army.

To better follow the rule R1, we apply one of the following changes:

(C8a): Hide detection and stealth values from players, keep it to the game to calculate internally. (This is related to R1 & P4 & C6) By following the rule R1, since you don't know where or what these forces are, you shouldn't know their detection against you. As for the garrison's infrastructure, that infrastructure is also hidden until you scout the city with an agent's action. Same with an opponent's satellite base, you shouldn't know about its detection until you uncover its location out of the fog of war or at least you know of its existence if it is public knowledge in the game who built a satellite to uncover what area.

So, in short, you shouldn't know the detection against your units, you also shouldn't know if your units' stealth regeneration is enough to counter that detection (from C6), and you shouldn't know delta stealth regeneration as well or what your unit's current remaining stealth is. You even shouldn't know when your stealth army has already been revealed by the opponent, the opponent should be able to surprise you with an attack and your army would run for its life or - even better - ambush your army while attacking it (yes, normal ambush rules apply and your army can't retreat), and either no one gets a grievance or both sides get grievances for trespassing and for attacking, and your unveiled army - if it survives the surprise - gets the trespassing status after getting attacked.

All the game should be able to sum up and show you is the amount of detection you already know exists against a tile which would still be "Minimum Detection" as you don't know about the rest of the forces applying detection against the tile. This is probably the hardest change to accept by everyone.

(C8b): A sad unrealistic alternative to that change would be to (R2): unite the vision/detection range of all units in any situation. (This is related to R1 & P4, Contradicts with C9) (This is ignored) Basically, any army seeing the tile of your hidden army should also always be seen by your army in any situation whether the two armies are up and down a cliff or one of them is in a forest tile or one of them is embarked or if one is a land units army while the other is a naval units army or air units. Also ignore the satellite detection idea C9. And Garrisons would have to get their detection from an inherent value instead of the hidden infrastructure (or the infrastructure doesn't become hidden somehow!). Also Hidden armies would have to lose their detection privileges as long as they are hiding. If a stealth army wants to work on detecting an opponent's hidden armies, it would have to lose its hidden status so they can be seen by the hidden army they are trying to detect. Which would require one of the following changes:

(C8ba): Apply C10.

(C8bb): Change detection into an action for all armies. (This is ignored) All armies' detection values - stealth armies or not - take no effect until they take on the action of "Detection" to search for hidden armies or to guard an important location against espionage. When this action is used by a hidden army, the army loses all its stealth and its hidden status as long as the action is turned on. This change is ignored as we currently don't need all the extra micro management. I wrote it just in case we needed it later.

This C8b option would force the answer to the question mentioned in C8 to always be yes, as you will always see the forces detecting your hidden armies/units. This is ignored as it doesn't make much sense to have all armies/units/buildings with the same vision/detection range at all times.

(C10): Stealth armies/units get the choice to unveil themselves. (This is related to C8ba) This is an optional change - unless C8ba was chosen which would make this change required for allowing stealth armies to use detection themselves on others. This could be done by the following:

(C10a): Add an action to "Unveil Self" in the army/unit panel. The action resets the army's stealth to zero and stays on as the army moves around until the action is turned off, at which point delta stealth regeneration takes effect normally for the army units to regain their stealth. Whether armies unveil themselves to detect others if C8ba was chosen; or armies unveil themselves on the map for strategic maneuvers and maybe then start hiding again by regenerating stealth next turn; or even stealth units unveiling themselves in combat for strategic maneuvers; or any other reason players can come up with, it would still be a neat realistic option to have.

(C11): Change the espionage layout - hostile detection screen. (This is related to R1 & P4 & C4 & C5 & C8 & C9 & C10) Based on all the changes chosen above, the hostile detection screen would need to either disappear for change C8a, or changes to show only expected "Minimum Detection" against a tile for change C8a, or change to show the game's calculation of "Detection" against your stealth armies if change C8b was chosen - which again, doesn't make much sense as the calculation would change when the army moves and reveal different enemy forces with detection.

(C12): Change the maximum stealth, stealth regeneration and maybe the detection of many units to rebalance the above changes while testing. Also, show stealth regeneration as a stat on stealth armies/units' panel as it now plays a more important role in stealth survival than before as the new counter to detection values. (This is related to C1 & C3 & C4 & C5 & C6 & C7 & C8 & C9 & C10)

In the end, I apologize if I overstepped at any point. I also apologize for the long thread, but as I said it is a complicated topic. I hope you take the time to be thorough with the thread as It took me a lot of time and effort to think about it, write it and try to organize it (1 day of writing and 1+ months of overthinking). Hope I can enjoy the game again one day.