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Restart button like Civ V

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5 years ago
Aug 1, 2020, 8:04:07 PM

Please can we have this I know you devs do your best but sometimes in a strategy game the autogen maps just screw you over and you want to restart, but going back through the menus is tedious. This can be especially troublesome if you're trying to get a specific start in order to go for a type of achievement or as a theme for Roleplay. As such adding a restart buttton like Civ used to have would be  wonderful quality of life feature and be most helpful. I hope that by pointing this out during the development phase you could do it more easily. Thanks for the consideration of reading this and good luck on the game. 
P.S. If the game already has something like this I appologize for wasting time.

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5 years ago
Aug 2, 2020, 8:48:43 AM

I would be inclined to agree. If this is not already a feature easily accessible from the esc menu, it certainly should be. I remember playing Civ VI and playing as Brazil, getting very few rainforest tiles around my start. My whole plan rested upon those rainforests. Having to quite the game, then start a new game, setting up the game in the exact same way, is exceedinly monotonous. A simple button within the esc menu which regenerates the world under the same conditions selected previously would be life saving (maybe not quite).

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5 years ago
Aug 3, 2020, 11:33:24 AM
protossman12 wrote:

I would be inclined to agree. If this is not already a feature easily accessible from the esc menu, it certainly should be. I remember playing Civ VI and playing as Brazil, getting very few rainforest tiles around my start. My whole plan rested upon those rainforests. Having to quite the game, then start a new game, setting up the game in the exact same way, is exceedinly monotonous. A simple button within the esc menu which regenerates the world under the same conditions selected previously would be life saving (maybe not quite).

The following doesn't speak against a restart button, but that shouldn't happen in HK since you can pick your culture after seeing the surrounding area. :)

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5 years ago
Aug 3, 2020, 12:18:26 PM
HBumblebee wrote:
protossman12 wrote:

I would be inclined to agree. If this is not already a feature easily accessible from the esc menu, it certainly should be. I remember playing Civ VI and playing as Brazil, getting very few rainforest tiles around my start. My whole plan rested upon those rainforests. Having to quite the game, then start a new game, setting up the game in the exact same way, is exceedinly monotonous. A simple button within the esc menu which regenerates the world under the same conditions selected previously would be life saving (maybe not quite).

The following doesn't speak against a restart button, but that shouldn't happen in HK since you can pick your culture after seeing the surrounding area. :)

Thanks for you reply! 

If we go into games to decide our journey -  and as such the cultures we choose -  after seeing the surrounding area, then certainly it should not be extremely important. 

However, some people go into games with a certain playstyle in mind, and as such certain cultures and ideologies they already want to follow. 

Hope this helps explain my reasoning for supporting the restart button in HK. Cheers! 

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5 years ago
Aug 3, 2020, 1:07:27 PM
You probably need the restart button even more, if you play with fixed cultures in mind, because someone might pick them before you. But I see your point obviously and can imagine that you re not alone with this thought.
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5 years ago
Nov 5, 2020, 4:54:56 PM

The Games already have a Quickstart menu which replicates the previous settings, however it it only accessible by going back to the main menu. Maybe you have faster computers but for my the loading screens take almost 6 min each and you have to go though 3 every time you restart from the main menu. Adding in a button from the esc menu would save lots of time and make singleplayer more tolerable. 

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5 years ago
Nov 5, 2020, 5:38:14 PM

They've also addressed this problem with another mechanism: the neolithic era. When you start the game you have a tribe which wanders and explores, gathers and hunts. After some time you pick a spot and a culture and begin your first city. This means you can choose your start location without needing to restart or be penalized by starting late. They are still fiddling with some of the particulars of neolithic to make last long enough to be useful, but not so long that it becomes boring. This significantly reduces the need to restart since you can find usually find a nice enough spot and choose a culture that matches it. If you find an area with a lot of rivers you might chose Harappan or Olmec because they get bonuses from rivers, but if you don't find rivers then you know not to choose those cultures.

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5 years ago
Nov 5, 2020, 5:56:08 PM
Eulogos wrote:
They are still fiddling with some of the particulars of neolithic to make last long enough to be useful, but not so long that it becomes boring.

Aside from a Fame bonus (which aside from score and being a winner at the end for the most, i don't know what it accomplishes) and flexibility of choices for the next Era, what are the advantages of staying in a previous Era longer than necessary?  Staying in the Neolithic Era for too long would miss out on the advantages of the culture chosen for the Ancient Age.  However, the choice might be best just before the choice of building or using the 1st Emblemic unit/building/ability, being able to scout around, seeing everything around.  How long should the Neolithic Era last on average before the benfits outweigh the flexibility of selecting a culture choice based on the resources around you?

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5 years ago
Nov 5, 2020, 9:01:48 PM

I can't answer that specifically without breaking NDA. I will say that they have changed how it works as they try to find something that feels right. You're welcome to speculate or put your opinion on how you think it aught to be.

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5 years ago
Nov 5, 2020, 9:50:46 PM
Eulogos wrote:
You're welcome to speculate or put your opinion on how you think it aught to be.

How should it aught to be?

Eventually, the decision to go into the next age should be better and better as the turn key is pressed, imo.  But, still the question lingers - why stay in a Neolithic or Ancient Era longer before going into the next future age?  The only thing that would keep someone is fame.  Why is fame important, aside from winning and score?  So, what if fame also acted as a weak buff to everything?  Then, the tradeoff of something better (a leap) is compared to the weak buff, cummaltive benefit would be considered.  That would be cool if that was it.  But, still it would have to be understood, the tradeoff, or have a good feel for, if such a system.

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5 years ago
Nov 6, 2020, 10:03:23 AM
Progress wrote: 

why stay in a Neolithic or Ancient Era longer before going into the next future age?  The only thing that would keep someone is fame.  

Why is fame important, aside from winning and score?  So, what if fame also acted as a weak buff to everything?  

I'm not a VIP but I have a few threads about the Neolithic age and culture transitions.


Having the Neolithic age lasting more than 10 turns is desirable. At this point in the game, players have had enough time to scout and judge their starting location. With this information they can narrow down the culture choices, select settling location, eyeball the neighbors (too close or too far), and/or decide to find a better location. 


Ultimately this helps avoid continuously resetting due to poor spawns, starting locations, and players are under less pressure to settle immediately as in CIV. Players are more informed about their choices, can prepare their tech route(s), and have their neighbors close or far accordingly. 


I do not know if there are benefits to staying longer in the neolithic age. If I had a guess it would be to 1) collect more food for higher initial starting population(s), 2) collect unique curiosities, 3) gain increased fame based on population, curiosities found, and discoverables. 


Fame is very important to win and does not need anything else. 


The condition(s) to ending the game are different then the condition(s) to winning thus allowing entirely different play-styles to be successful. On the other hand, Civ places both the win and victory condition in the same place making play linear with little variation for the chosen path. In a non-linear game, it's more difficult to determine who is in the lead because science, culture, or territory progress does not directly correlate to "winning." If a player researches and transitions cultures as soon as possible to conclude the game quickly, I'll wager they will lose handedly even if they manage to exterminate all the other cultures. 


Aside from fame, why shouldn't cultures transition as soon as possible?


City Planning: Emblematic Quarters are powerful but cannot be built after transitioning to another culture. Taking the time to plan-out and place them to synergize with later emblematic quarters can pay dividends. (I'd like to see emblematic quarters (of the same affinity type) have greater synergy with each other)


Yields: Transitioning early opens up new constructions and infrastructure, but players must have enough industry or coin to bring them online in a timely fashion. Rushing ahead is a good way to unlock great toys but at the cost of taking too long to construct or make use them. 


Influence/Territory costs: Although not in OpenDev, I could easily see each era increasing the amount of influence needed to attach or claim a territory. This could make transitioning eras quickly backfire as your cities would not be advanced enough to keep up with the cost(s). 


Science Cultures: As they can already research one era ahead, they have the optionality to sail ahead culturally or maximize their potential in the current era without extended downsides.  


Diplomacy: This one is a stretch, but I can see some AIs befriending less threatening or developed neighbors. However this can swing both ways. 





Updated 5 years ago.
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5 years ago
Nov 6, 2020, 11:21:18 AM
Progress wrote:
Eulogos wrote:
You're welcome to speculate or put your opinion on how you think it aught to be.

How should it aught to be?

Eventually, the decision to go into the next age should be better and better as the turn key is pressed, imo.  But, still the question lingers - why stay in a Neolithic or Ancient Era longer before going into the next future age?  The only thing that would keep someone is fame.  Why is fame important, aside from winning and score?  So, what if fame also acted as a weak buff to everything?  Then, the tradeoff of something better (a leap) is compared to the weak buff, cummaltive benefit would be considered.  That would be cool if that was it.  But, still it would have to be understood, the tradeoff, or have a good feel for, if such a system.

Fame is basically another way to name a score victory. The difference in Humankind, compared to other 4X games victory conditions, is that it is a "unified victory condition", where all the "traditional" victory conditions (such as science, culture, diplomatic, militarist, etc ..., represented in the game by the Era Stars) all play a role and eventually aggregate in a single victory, Fame.


But, as you said and guessed, Fame (or rather Era Stars), is also an inner mechanic ingame, which allows you to move towards the next Era. However, there's a distinction to be made I think, between Neolithic Era and the 6 other Eras.


Based on the more recent footage (Humankind's preview by Writting Bull, in German), you have 3 categories which will allow you to move from Neolithic to Ancient Era, where you'll get to choose your first culture and build your first cities : Growth Star, Knowledge Star, and Hunt Star (keep in mind that it is still a work-in-progress thing, as @Eulogos said, so that may change again before release).  

  

I'm not sure about the numbers here (the preview isn't telling it clearly), but there's only one Era Star to be filled, by fulfilling a certain amount of goals such has growing X pop, discovering X knowledges or hunting X wild animals on the map. You can see, starting from here in the preview, how the player progresses to this unique Era Star. Based on the preview, I'm not sure gathering more food/pop, knowledge or hunted animals would grant you more Fame though. Maybe a VIP could confirm that ?

But in any case, I assume that the Neolithic Era should be around 10 turns or so, meaning more than enough time to discover your surroundings, and spot the best locations for your first city and later expansion. 


Now, the way the other 6 Eras Stars work is different, as you are aware of. For each Era, in order to move to the next one, you'll have to fulfill 7 Era Stars (out of 21) splitted in 7 categories, related to the 7 affinities ingame, which will grant you Fame. The more Era Stars you gain in a particular category, the more Fame you accrue. It's even more true for your culture affinity's Era Stars, they give you more Fame than the 6 others categories : based on the same preview, a complete explanation of Era Stars screen.


So what will make you decide wether to move to the next Era once you gained those 7 Era Stars, or stay in the current Era ?

Based on Stadia's OpenDev playthroughs, I'd assume there are several ways of seeing it.

  1. You have no defined strategy yet for the next Era (no particular culture interest for instance), and you want to be able to build more EQ of your current culture, as well as grab all the 21 Era Stars of the current Era, to gain the most Fame possible.
  2. Tied to the first option, you want to transcend your current culture, thus you want to gain all the available Fame (meaning achieving 21 Era Stars) of the current Era before transcending.
  3. Or you have a strategy in mind, you want to be able to choose your next culture before anyone else picks it. You'd then "rush" 7 Era Stars to have access to next Era as quick as possible, allowing you to pick your next culture. Though, that would mean not fulfilling all 21 Era Stars of the current Era, so not getting the most Fame out of the current Era.



Updated 5 years ago.
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5 years ago
Nov 6, 2020, 12:26:13 PM
Tainted wrote:
Influence/Territory costs: Although not in OpenDev, I could easily see each era increasing the amount of influence needed to attach or claim a territory. This could make transitioning eras quickly backfire as your cities would not be advanced enough to keep up with the cost(s). 

Not arguing your excellent post above, I'm just sharing clarification regarding influence for attaching territories, since I've played Stadia's OpenDev.


You're right, in this scenario, the amount of influence needed to attach a territory increased, the more territories you wanted to attach. If I remember correctly, your first territory would cost you 20 influence, second one would cost 40, third 60, and so on. And I think, the more far away the territory was, the more expensive the cost would be as well.


Though, Civics come in pretty handy, there's one which I can't recall its exact name (Land Rights or something of that kind), which allows you to spend money rather than influence to attach territories.


And that was pretty handy actually, 'cause at one point, in the early turns of the scenario, you wouldn't have or generate enough influence to attach more territories.

Updated 5 years ago.
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5 years ago
Nov 6, 2020, 4:31:28 PM
Waykot wrote:
Or you have a strategy in mind, you want to be able to choose your next culture before anyone else picks it.

That would certainly cut down 10^6, or one million CIV possibilities to choose from down the road if you're not 1st to select it, if that's the case (I hope not).  If the last to select it, because of claiming the most fame in the previous eras, there's always just only 1 choice to consider instead of 1 million.  I like having options to consider.  I think claiming wonders of the world makes sense, denying others that opportunity if 1st with culture points, but being the 1st to claim a specific CIV shouldn't deny your opponent of a "mirror match" imo.  If one Neolithic tribe finds a good river one turn later than another culture half-way around the world, should that deny them of the Harappans selection, for example?  Maybe, if claiming a culture was equated to claiming a wonder of the world, with stored influence points, that consideration should be made.  Then, that choice can be weighed against other choices, so there is compensation for being 1 turn too late because instead of the culture leap, there's other primitive more advantages that a Neolithic culture could have, if half-way around the world unduely rushed too quickily into their CIV.

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5 years ago
Nov 6, 2020, 5:21:14 PM
Progress wrote:
That would certainly cut down 10^6, or one million CIV possibilities to choose from down the road if you're not 1st to select it, if that's the case (I hope not).  If the last to select it, because of claiming the most fame in the previous eras, there's always just only 1

Well, as an aside and to be fair, there's actually 11 choices to consider for every Era, starting from Ancient Era : the 10 new cultures, and the 11th choice is transcendance (keeping/extending your current culture in the next Era). I'm terribly bad at maths, so I'll just say that would end up to more than one million cultural path/lineage possibilities over the 6 Eras.


But the main point is that currently (again, this is still a WIP, as far as I know), there is a maximum of 8 players ingame. So if you're the last to pick your culture, you'd still have 3 choices : 2 new cultures or transcending your own. And even if there were actually 10 players ingame, you'd still have 2 choices if you were the last to pick : 1 new culture or transcend your own.


Progress wrote:
but being the 1st to claim a specific CIV shouldn't deny your opponent of a "mirror match" imo.  If one Neolithic tribe finds a good river one turn later than another culture half-way around the world, should that deny them of the Harappans selection, for example?

Well, I get what you mean, though I think that's why there's a mix and "sort of" balance between cultures' affinities  and traits in each Era. Say you want to pick Harrapans but it has already been chosen by another player, you could get to pick the Olmecs which have a river bonus on their Emblematic Quarter as well.

If that helps, there's a nice guy who compiled all the known cultures traits/Emblematic Unit/Emblematic Quarter and affinities, which should give you more details on each culture.


Progress wrote:
Maybe, if claiming a culture was equated to claiming a wonder of the world, with stored influence points, that consideration should be made.

Well, if we're strictly speaking about Neolithic Era, that wouldn't work. You're only starting to generate influence in Ancient Era, after having picked your first culture and founded your first city.

Updated 5 years ago.
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5 years ago
Nov 6, 2020, 7:02:01 PM
Waykot wrote:
You're only starting to generate influence in Ancient Era, after having picked your first culture and founded your first city.

So, that's an even greater incentive to be hasty and rush to a specific culture instead of considering the tradeoff, which should be considered imo, of staying in the Neolithic Era.



Waykot wrote:
But the main point is that currently (again, this is still a WIP, as far as I know), there is a maximum of 8 players ingame. So if you're the last to pick your culture, you'd still have 3 choices : 2 new cultures or transcending your own. And even if there were actually 10 players ingame, you'd still have 2 choices if you were the last to pick : 1 new culture or transcend your own.

What is put at stake for claiming yourself while denying opponent a specific culture opportunity?  If its not influence, then what - is it just missed opportunities (inner stars) for fame scoring?  imo, there should be something put at stake for something competitive, just like a wonder of the world!  The fact that there are players in game simply makes things more competitve.  If there's nothing put at stake, not even influence, that's another reason to hastily rush to a specific culture 1st instead of investing in something truly fabulous, like an Ancient culture out of a Neolithic one.  Are there any bad consequences for the player who hastily claims the cuture as soon as possible compared to one who optimally claims the lesser than best choice 10 turns later?  This is especially important in the early stages of the game to figure out, because everyone will be doing it at roughly the same time.  Its possible that, hasty selected cultures, although having less total Fame, would be more competitive later in the ways they gained their benefits from claiming culture, unless the inner stars were like a Veterancy system, bettering that specific field, still remaining competitive up to the point of 21 stars, although trying to earn stars in any field that is already full (3 stars) in that system would be an inefficency, not earning stars.  So, conceptually, when a player realizes there is nothing to gain in any field - they should want to consider the next Era more and more, or Transcend their last Era thing if all the good choices are taken.

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5 years ago
Nov 6, 2020, 8:47:28 PM
Progress wrote:
So, that's an even greater incentive to be hasty and rush to a specific culture instead of considering the tradeoff, which should be considered imo, of staying in the Neolithic Era.

Mmmmh, not sure to follow you here. What would you consider as an incentive to stay longer in the Neolithic Era, where you can't build or do anything, apart from scouting and grabbing small amounts of food, money and science ? Just look at some reviews from last June, or the recent one I mentioned above, you won't find much to do really. Or am I misunderstanding you at all ?


Progress wrote:
If there's nothing put at stake, not even influence, that's another reason to hastily rush to a specific culture 1st instead of investing in something truly fabulous, like an Ancient culture out of a Neolithic one. Its possible that, hasty selected cultures, although having less total Fame, would be more competitive later in the ways they gained their benefits from claiming culture

Well, I'd say the whole point of the game (of every game) is to win, right ? Humankind being a 4X game, and this kind of game heavily relying on snowballing, I'd say that, indeed, earning 7 Era Stars as soon as possible to move through the next Era, having the best cultures picks all choices of cultures available, will allow you to advance further and faster than your opponents. Eventually, you'll have better yields, better cities infrastructures/extensions, better units, because you'll have better scientific researches and knowledges. You'll get better Civics, being the first to encounter them, you'll get to choose Wonders before the others because you'd have generated more influence ... you get the idea. All of this generating more and more Fame.

Updated 5 years ago.
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5 years ago
Nov 6, 2020, 9:19:04 PM
Waykot wrote:
What would you consider as an incentive to stay longer in the Neolithic Era, where you can't build or do anything, apart from scouting and grabbing small amounts of food, money and science ?

I'd consider Veterancy of inner stars a reward to stay longer than needed to a point.  If there's no Veterancy of Stars, just being earned inner stars instead, then fame score is not incentive enough, Id think because of the snowball effect of grabbing a culture ASAP.  I'm not against snowballing an advantage at the right time - there should just be a clear advantage to snowball 1st, before doing so, imo, not just because its advantageous to do it just because it should be done ASAP without any short-term considerations 1st.  Obviously, staying in the Neolithic Age forever should be a Disadvantage, competitively due to cheap opportunties to up their Fame, Veterancy of basic things, or whatever.  I'd like to see a system where the best average decision to do the next Era is at 14 stars, where 7 stars is when it should be considered for the advantages it would bring, and 21 stars, being a perfectionist would statistically be too late, but has some merit because of the idea of Cheap Veterancy.


Waykot wrote:
Well, I'd say the whole point of the game (of every game) is to win, right ?

Absolutely, the point is to win!  But, going for the Checkmate (Fame score) is best focused on the Chess Endgame, where there is enough Advantge to win - going for it, not in the Chess Opening (Neolithic Age) where such a consideration wouldnt be so great, unless the opponent did nothing advantageous to counter it.  I just like the idea of comparing advantages to be gained, where at some point it tips in favor of doing it, then if still not done, it becomes extremely obvious in hindsight when it should have been done.  What choice is to be made if the other choice isn't seriously considered, staying Neolithic?  Hypothetically, if it took 1 turn to gain a each inner Star, on average, then there's a range of opportunites to consider leaping into the next age from turn 7 to turn 21.  Should it always be best to do it ASAP?  What if the answer was it depends based on the consideration of cultures to choose from vs specific veterancy?  That would be very much more interesting, imo.

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4 years ago
Dec 31, 2020, 7:47:33 PM

Glad I was able to prompt such discussion, honestly I put this idea here because I wish it was in endless legend, where I feel like every region around my start is more interesting than my start itself. Hopefully whether the devs like the idea or not we continue to have great conversations about what makes a good game, and what players actually like. I love how responsive amplitude is and that you all listen to this feedback, have a great day.

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