... kind of boring. Maybe on different map types. 

The Phoenicians are all about trade, so keep that in mind when evaluating them.  What makes them especially good at trade is their naval exploration, being able to find other cultures quickly to trade with.  Their unique unit (bireme I think) can navigate like a quadrireme, while the pentekonner that everyone else gets can't last a single turn in ocean waters.  Biremes are great at farming the strong ocean curiosities as well.  That can be a big boost to science, influence, and money.  They are one of the few cultures in which the unique unit may be the strongest bonus they have, although I think their district and legacy bonuses are solid too.

Trade is a big deal. Remember it provides yields for all your cities. Finding a trade partner with dyes (for example) an era early means getting extra industry for all your cities an era earlier than normal.

Almost(?) every other culture gets their Emblematic Quarter at the start of the era.  Would it unbalance things to allow a Haven to be built without teching to it?

You can conquer cities with ships just now on, after the update

YichenZhu wrote:
The current game is strictly in favor of land-based cultures. Regardless how strong your naval is, you can not claim any territories or conquer a single city. Finding other cultures to trade does not make much sense to me, since the only good thing about trade is you can buy other's luxuries; you can not get extremely wealthy from trade anyway, since the prices of purchasing luxuries are too low to be viable.

In ancient and classical era, phoenician successfully settled lots of cities around the mediterranean and gets very wealthy through the rich sea trade routes. Their navies help ensure the safety of their trade routes as well as sometimes making some conquests. If the game can not reflect the historical strength of the Phoenician, then the game design is problemetic.

I would suggest Phoenician can embark into water tiles (rather than in classical era) and build heavens (rather than obtaining sailing tech) immediately after unlocking the fishing technology. This will give Phonecian a unique strength on water-heavy map. As for their bonus money for trader,  it is not a bad bonus, but a pretty much useless bonus in ancient and classical era.

RedSirus wrote:

Almost(?) every other culture gets their Emblematic Quarter at the start of the era.  Would it unbalance things to allow a Haven to be built without teching to it?

I feel like giving the Phoenicians the Haven immediately would pretty much make them viable, let alone the weakness of money and trade.

I've played more Phonecians and they are more than just kay place but it seems like Amplitude has decided that having the Haven early would be too much of an advantage. It's just that their a little boring... in the Ancient era. Over all I think I missed an obvious petition to raise during Open Dev. They kind of feel like they belong in Classical and not Ancient. It'd make for a much easier choice if you knew you had gotten enough luxuries or not, or could get them once you make more territories into cities or attach them. Plus it would have created a different branch from Carthaginians. As an Ancient culture they work okay and segue well into Carthage or the Aksumites but your best bet I'm thinking now is to try to pivot rapidly through Classical with Greek to nab Ghannians but unfortunately that's not always easy because I feel like Phonecians struggle adopting into a new culture more than feels appropriate.

I like them, assuming many coastal provinces.

There are downsides as you mention. I particularly find their ship useless since by the time you get it, the other cultures have a proper ship from the classical era which outclasses it.

In addition to trade, there are two very powerful facts:

1) Their EQ can be built in outposts. In Ancient era, you may not have many territories in your city, but you can get extra EQ compared to other civs (like Mycenaeans but they're usually taken right after Harappans).

2) People seem to forget that havens/harbors get food and money from sea tiles. All other cultures are stuck to land based exploitation until they're able to build a harbor much later, if they do at all. So if you're in an area somewhat lacking food and rivers, well, this solves your food problem. And it gives you some nice spending cash - in my current game, I have saved into the thousands by using them + Carthaginians with just two cities. Of course, the only thing to spend gold on is trade, which is a virtuous cycle (It would be nice if buyout costs didn't get nerfed so badly).

PotatoesAreBland wrote:

I've played more Phonecians and they are more than just kay place but it seems like Amplitude has decided that having the Haven early would be too much of an advantage. It's just that their a little boring... in the Ancient era. Over all I think I missed an obvious petition to raise during Open Dev. They kind of feel like they belong in Classical and not Ancient. It'd make for a much easier choice if you knew you had gotten enough luxuries or not, or could get them once you make more territories into cities or attach them. Plus it would have created a different branch from Carthaginians. As an Ancient culture they work okay and segue well into Carthage or the Aksumites but your best bet I'm thinking now is to try to pivot rapidly through Classical with Greek to nab Ghannians but unfortunately that's not always easy because I feel like Phonecians struggle adopting into a new culture more than feels appropriate.

Playing with the CPL guys on discord I learned a lot and only got "smiled at" when playing them. One guy said: "Phoenicians is basically neolithic extended".

There doesn't seem a way of Phoenicians to compete with other development cutlrues, such as Harrapans or Egypt. And if you want to be competitive, you have to skip rushing their harbor, and then you have to delay the next culture to get the harbors up, basically shooting yourself in the foot.