First, I am loving the Victor playtest thus far. That being said, I noticed an issue that should be raised.  

It's an issue made more obvious by the design of the victor avatar.

In many parts of the world cultural appropriation can a real and damaging issue for many people and having an avatar, especially one of an old white man, dressed in traditional clothing of various cultures could be seen as problematic.

As a white man from America, it's often hard to notice things like this myself.  I appreciate the sense of equality this can bring, but that view of equality can often be one-sided.

For a very long time, a Eurocentric view of the world has viewed equality as allowing the rest of the world be more like Europe(and America).  That anyone who doesn’t conform to our ideals is “less than”, while at the same time making it “fun” to partake in the activities and dress of those same “less than” cultures.  I’ve best heard this mindset described in the line “make the world England”.  

This makes us blind to the fact that other cultures are perfectly equal already, they are just different.  And those people can often be offended by our dual nature of pressuring them to conform to our ideals of normal, while also appropriating their culture for our amusement.  For a semi-recent example, think Justin Trudeau in blackface for an Arabian Nights party.  This does not show respect to their culture.  How would people in India feel if they saw Churchill wear a dhoti?  How about Native Americans if Andrew Jackson(or any American President) wore a Native American War Bonnet(feather headdress)?  It wouldn't be received well.

I think having a static avatar wear the clothing of so many different cultures could definitely cause some problematic images, especially when that avatar is so culturally unambiguous.

I hate raising a problem without a suggesting a solution, but it’s hard because I love the idea of the avatar system. Something like changing skin color and hair with every new culture defeats the whole point of customizing your own avatar.

I don’t have a good answer, but I bring this up in the hopes someone else might.

As another white man, I do not intend to disregard the harm the cultural appropriation causes, but do wish to offer a counterpoint.

If we are to hold cultural appropriation as morally bad, it would be fair to say that it is bad insofar as we would be using culture-specific garb for our own vanity. That is to say, it would be morally wrong for a white man to wear a kimono on the streets of Chicago, as it is not of the right context to properly show respect to the Japanese culture by wearing that garb. However, wearing a kimono at a Shinto temple in Japan would likely be considered as more appropriate, and therefore more respectful (it seems that respect is the most morally-relevant feature here).

The Humankind's avatar and culture system, in my belief, provides the right context under which using that garb could be shown as respectful to that culture, as you are: A) Trying to benefit in your campaign through adopting that culture, and B) Trying to accurately depict the culture by using their culture-specific garb (as using a more "uniform" approach like Civilization could be considered cultural assimilation [by using traditional Western looks]). I agree that it could be problematic if the player uses that garb for vanity, as in choosing a culture just to "dress-up" as them, but I don't believe that Humankind makes this the necessary case when using culture-specific garb.

This avatar system can be uncomfortable to some degree, but I believe it is a step in the right direction in presenting a historically-accurate depiction of each individual culture and giving us reason to recognize these cultures as equally valuable.

That is an excellent counterpoint, and while I want to agree with it, I don't feel I am the right person to make that decision.

To your example of wearing a Kimono at a shrine, it could be respectful if the custom is for anyone/everyone to do so.  However, when clothes have special meaning, it's not up to the outsider to decide if adopting them is respectful.  If you are asked/advised to wear it 

I want to agree that it is being done in a respectful way, I just also know that I can't decide for someone else if it respects their culture.  Additionally one culture may be perfectly fine and welcoming to have a stranger adopt their attire for a special event, while another won't.  

These can be big questions that I am not equipped to answer, nor do I think there is a single answer, even to the basic question of "is it morally bad".

I just hoped to raise the question to cast a critical eye can on it, and to start the conversation to make sure this amazing game doesn't cause unintended harm.

"I think having a static avatar wear the clothing of so many different cultures could definitely cause some problematic images, especially when that avatar is so culturally unambiguous. "

Isn't this game about creating new cultures? How then can it be cultural appropriation if this is part of the new culture? As far as I'm aware this game isn't about following one culture to the end (even if you can do so).

dordier wrote:

To your example of wearing a Kimono at a shrine, it could be respectful if the custom is for anyone/everyone to do so.  However, when clothes have special meaning, it's not up to the outsider to decide if adopting them is respectful.  If you are asked/advised to wear it 

I want to agree that it is being done in a respectful way, I just also know that I can't decide for someone else if it respects their culture.  Additionally one culture may be perfectly fine and welcoming to have a stranger adopt their attire for a special event, while another won't.  

I appreciate the concern with cultural representation and I believe it is necessary to ensure historical-accuracy, but depictions of those cultures and someone's criticism with it has to be done on a case-by-case basis because there exist people in a culture who might be fine with that representation and those who aren't. Just as you pointed out that cultures can react differently to these issues, cultural representation cannot be dealt with uniformly, but again, it is important that you brought this issue up.

Mered4 wrote:
As a person with a brain, I would like to point out that discriminating against a race due to their skin color is called racism and should not be tolerated in any context whatsoever.   
Thank you.

I'm not entirely sure how this contributes to the discussion, nor why "as a person with a brain" needs to be said, unless you are insinuating that we are unintelligent for believing that cultures need to be properly represented. Maybe it's from the fact that we both stated we were white men, which ought to be said considering that, historically, Caucasian cultures have not dealt with nearly as much cultural destruction or discrimination as non-White cultures have.

Novos wrote:

"I think having a static avatar wear the clothing of so many different cultures could definitely cause some problematic images, especially when that avatar is so culturally unambiguous. "

Isn't this game about creating new cultures? How then can it be cultural appropriation if this is part of the new culture? As far as I'm aware this game isn't about following one culture to the end (even if you can do so).

Humankind is aimed at creating your own culture in a broad sense, which means something closer to a national identity than it does an ethnicity. By using past and current cultures and ethnicities in guiding the choices we make, it could be appropriative insofar as the culture would merely be seen as a tool and not as valuable itself, as using a culture merely as a means is a form of disrespect on a Kantian account of goodness.

Novos wrote:

"I think having a static avatar wear the clothing of so many different cultures could definitely cause some problematic images, especially when that avatar is so culturally unambiguous. "

Isn't this game about creating new cultures? How then can it be cultural appropriation if this is part of the new culture? As far as I'm aware this game isn't about following one culture to the end (even if you can do so).

It is about creating new cultures, to an extent.  Just like how in real life, we have remnants of roman culture all over the world in many different other cultures. 

But this situation is a little different, our avatar wears the clothes of the current culture they represent, and not a mish-mash of the cumulative cultures they have represented over time.

I appreciate the attention to detail the artists have taken in re-creating things so true to history, which is where the problem lies.  

If they put my avatar is something that looked like  a hybrid of Babylonian, Roman, Spanish, and German, then the artistic liberty would make it harder for it to be offensive to any one culture and would be closer to the new culture you mention.

That's not what's happening though, they are wearing very realistic(and very well designed) historical clothing.  So I can make an avatar that looks like me(white man) wearing the clothes of any culture.  Then I just have to ask, how would people respond if I actually wore that outfit and posted pictures of myself online?

Again, to clarify, I'm not saying it's necessarily bad.  I love the art and the work that has gone into it, I just want to ensure the issue is raised and hope the dev team will or already has worked with experts that can give them a better answer.  Starting it with a discussion on here.

Mered4 wrote:
As a person with a brain, I would like to point out that discriminating against a race due to their skin color is called racism and should not be tolerated in any context whatsoever.   
Thank you.

While I appreciate your sentiment that racism is bad, I hope(and sadly know the opposite is true) that we can all just accept that and move forward with actual substance here.  I don't think anything the dev/art team has done is racist, nor was it intended to be.

My concern is more with the possibility that the viewpoints of all cultures be heard and considered in the design process.

For example, I know during development, the dev team of Smite didn't take this into account and had some issues.  Smite is a MOBA where the characters are gods from different pantheons throughout history.  Some leaders in the Hindu community did not appreciate having their gods depicted in a game.

Clothes often in history have more significance than they do now, and it's a non-zeo chance for an Avatar wearing something of cultural importance.  If the dev team already took this into account, then awesome, but often things like this are overlooked and lead to unintended pain and anger for people.

My comment was pointed to the following facts:
First, by specifying that you feel a white man wearing another cultures clothing is problematic and should be questioned or worse, you are discriminating against that person on the basis of their skin color.  
Second, by specifying that you yourselves are white males who are somehow enlightened in seeing this 'problem', you are identifying yourselves as the problem.  Normal, not racist people do not walk around identifying themselves by their race.  With the exception of certain medical issues or treatments, skin color is entirely irrelevant to anyone's day to day lives.
Third, this entire conversation contains zero substance, because somehow you have made the decision that the race of the person in a video game wearing certain clothing makes you feel uncomfortable.  There is so little substance here, it should be on Twitter.

Mered4 wrote:

My comment was pointed to the following facts:
First, by specifying that you feel a white man wearing another cultures clothing is problematic and should be questioned or worse, you are discriminating against that person on the basis of their skin color.  
Second, by specifying that you yourselves are white males who are somehow enlightened in seeing this 'problem', you are identifying yourselves as the problem.  Normal, not racist people do not walk around identifying themselves by their race.  With the exception of certain medical issues or treatments, skin color is entirely irrelevant to anyone's day to day lives.
Third, this entire conversation contains zero substance, because somehow you have made the decision that the race of the person in a video game wearing certain clothing makes you feel uncomfortable.  There is so little substance here, it should be on Twitter.

As you have stated three points, I will in kind respond in three points.

1. We have specified race in two cases: The first, in identifying ourselves as white because dordier and I both wish to speak on the topic of cultural appropriation while trying to not assert our understandings of cultural appropriation as the right one, and wish to bring up a dialogue that is meant to respect those who have had their cultures mocked, destroyed, or stigmatized. I don't know what it feels like to be discriminated against on the basis of skin color, and so we wish to leave the assertion of experience to those who have been discriminated. The second, dordier's example with a depiction of himself in culture-specific garb is meant to give an example of inadvertent appropriation through vanity. That is, he is concerned that choosing to give himself the privilege to wear another culture's garb may make the other culture uncomfortable as he is not paying proper respect to the other culture in question (although this is an assumption and would like dordier to correct me if I misread him).

2. In no way have we classified ourselves as "enlightened", nor have we criticized others for this point for not being raised (at least to our knowledge). You are right, most people don't walk around and identify their race at random, but certainly issues of experience, where race is a relevant factor in how we are perceived by others and judgements are made based on implicit bias, then we ought to identify ourselves as to not detract the conversation from the group that is being harmed. It would be unjustified to speak on a podium about the experiences of the African American community as a white person simply because a white person has not been someone who has been unfairly treated on account of being a person of color. You may have missed this point from dordier:

dordier wrote:

That is an excellent counterpoint, and while I want to agree with it, I don't feel I am the right person to make that decision.

This first line is dordier trying to acknowledge my counterpoint, but not speak on behalf of the historically-oppressed, as Caucasian cultures have not been historically-oppressed to nearly the same degree.

3. There are two different issues I have with this claim. The statement that this conversation carries "zero substance", as you put it, means that you don't believe cultural appropriation can be harmful. Do you not believe that respect is intrinsically valuable and that we ought to respect other cultures? Secondly, your claim that either of us currently feel uncomfortable is an invalid claim, disproved by dordier's first post.

dordier wrote:

In many parts of the world cultural appropriation can a real and damaging issue for many people and having an avatar, especially one of an old white man, dressed in traditional clothing of various cultures could be seen as problematic.

 

I think having a static avatar wear the clothing of so many different cultures could definitely cause some problematic images, especially when that avatar is so culturally unambiguous.

dordier is trying to address the issue preemptively so that affected groups would not be uncomfortable in the future, not stating discomfort himself.

If you feel that cultural-appropriation is not an issue, would you please provide an argument rather than merely making somewhat-vague claims? It certainly helps the dialogue along, if not to help us filter side-points that ought to be addressed from those that provide little substance in meaning.

I think as long as the depiction is accurate and not grounded in stereotypes or picking out anything extremely negative about the culture, in most cases it will be fine. The problem is that the "avatars" are ambiguous to what they represent. Are they supposed to be abstract representation of your empire given form? The same thing, but for your currently selected culture? The accumulation of your selected cultures? Or is it supposed to be "the player" as seen in the Lucy trailer?

AdeimantusCaird wrote:

This first line is dordier trying to acknowledge my counterpoint, but not speak on behalf of the historically-oppressed, as Caucasian cultures have not been historically-oppressed to nearly the same degree.

It seems you are using "Caucasian" to mean "white" here. Rather strange, since that usage is rather outdated, and stems from a long discredited and racist theory of racial classification. More specifically, from Johann Blumenbach alleging that the "white race" originated from the Caucasus Mountains, and were the sole race true to God's image.   

FlamingKetchup wrote:

AdeimantusCaird wrote:

This first line is dordier trying to acknowledge my counterpoint, but not speak on behalf of the historically-oppressed, as Caucasian cultures have not been historically-oppressed to nearly the same degree.

It seems you are using "Caucasian" to mean "white" here. Rather strange, since that usage is rather outdated, and stems from a long discredited and racist theory of racial classification. More specifically, from Johann Blumenbach alleging that the "white race" originated from the Caucasus Mountains, and were the sole race true to God's image.   

I appreciate you catching me on this. I have only know "Caucasian" to be a synonym of "white" as, in my experience, the two have been under the same classification on medical and state documents. I accept the criticism and intend on using "white" as the proper reference in the future.

I really do understand the concerns about cultural appropriation right, but I do find myself disagreeing. In a game about cultures, there somehow need to be cultural elements present. Not only is the victor avatar sometimes wearing culturally historic clothes, but so are the squares and building within his cities. Also the units he's fighting with and the districts Victor is building are culturally influenced. There is no way to make a game like this without appropriating some elements of culture. And I personally find the devs have done a great job at being both inclusive of non-western cultures and historically accurate to major civilizations at every era.  

Can Americans please stop imposing their neurotic politics onto the rest of the world?

Yes Americans, please stop being paralyzed by PC culture. All my Netflix shows are slowly getting ruined by this crap.

Thank you.

I'm personally offended that the representation of my Polish Culture is so underpowered haha.

When the game officially launches you won't be using Victor OpenDev as your Leader Avatar. You will get to pick a Leader from a range of options, that will obviously include Historic Leaders ~and~ Twitch Streamer Avatars. You will also be able to create your own Leader. Each Leader will have different bonuses and possibly disadvantages that will affect the entirety of your game completely separate from the current Culture you have which (as is the basis of the entire game) you can change every Era.

In the limited context in which it exists, I feel that the Developers have done an incredible job of properly portraying each culture. Even showing not just their native dress, but also jewelry, customary body paint and / or tattoos in a manner that accurately reflect that Culture in that time period. Giving players a tiny window into what the people in that culture were like in that time frame. 

The game mechanic of having your own Leader which is separate and not defined by which culture you choose to play in the game, ~IS~ the Primary Unique Thing that makes Humankind different and brings Something New to the Genre. Noone else has made a similar game where the Leader was distinct and apart from the Culture. Nor has anyone ever made a similar game where you can change and evolve your culture as the game progresses. This very thing is the Particular Speciality of this game. That which makes it Unique. it is That Very Thing which is why we are all here playing it.

Let's not go changing the one completely new thing this game brings to the genre.

Laliloluhla wrote:

I'm personally offended that the representation of my Polish Culture is so underpowered haha.

I'm sorry you only got a Fortress EQ.

I think the idea of cultural appropriation is that some people are more privileged and when other people (who feels less privileged) sees them trying to act like them without understanding their circumstances, they feel offended. But in here, every avatar get the same treatment. You can make your avatar as white people, but you can also make them as others too, and they still can have all the cultures. So it's not a problem for me personally.

But then again, that's my opinion, and I'm open for others to correct me if I'm wrong.

clearnote wrote:

I think the idea of cultural appropriation is that some people are more privileged and when other people (who feels less privileged) sees them trying to act like them without understanding their circumstances, they feel offended. But in here, every avatar get the same treatment. You can make your avatar as white people, but you can also make them as others too, and they still can have all the cultures. So it's not a problem for me personally.

But then again, that's my opinion, and I'm open for others to correct me if I'm wrong.

I think getting the opinion of someone who has dealt with cultural appropriation is the best way to get an answer, preferably multiple people of multiple cultures.