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Contemporary Cultures Discussion - SPOILERS

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4 years ago
Jun 2, 2021, 12:37:14 PM

Since the May event for content creators spoiled all the Contemporary Cultures, I'm creating this thread to discuss them. If you don't want to be spoiled, there is still time: close this thread and come back later. To avoid misclicks, here's a wallpaper:


Are you still here? A little disclaimer first: All non final numbers are non final. Without any further ado, lets begin.

Australians


Australians are pretty standard Builder design. Not mind-blowing or very unique, but overall strong and in line with earlier Builders. I like it and I don't think it needs any changes. Even the numbers on it seem pretty balanced. EU is strong (one of the strongest of the era, CS-wise), and is also in a great spot.


Brazilians

The Brazilians are thematically and mechanically almost at the perfect spot. I think both the LT and EU are great thematically and mechanically, bringing great bonuses that fit the agrarian playstyle. The EQ, however, suffers from being too close, mechanically, to the Nemeton. I would, at the bare minimum, swap the Farmer slot for a Researcher slot (it is a lab, not a farm), and if you want to bring more thematic flavor to it, I would remove the + food for pops (which is very strong for sure, but is also the defining Nemeton quality) and give it + food on ALL tiles in the territory the EQ is built in. One of the main reasons EMBRAPA (the institution the Brazilian EQ is modelled after) is known for is for making a big chunk of the Brazilian territory (the Cerrado) productive enough to be able to sustain large-scale farming. Giving +Food to all tiles in the territory means not only that your high food spots will wield more, but also that you can build farm districts anywhere, which would thematically fit very well. The amount of +Food per tile it should give needs testing, but it would be a interesting direction to go.


Chinese

The Chinese are also well designed, but I have some things to say about it. First, the EU is a fantastic unit that can wreck havoc from afar, which I like very much. The EQ seems fine if it is a Hamlet replacement, exploits all AND can be built multiples per territory. Make it "one per territory" as most EQ and it is lackluster, however, needing much bigger bonuses - probably a +15 money per adjacent district instead of pure +10 money if it is meant to be one per territory, so it is closer to the yields of a strip mine. Lastly, I really like the LT, with a small caveat: it is just a bigger version of the Aksumite LT, and seeing the two I think the Aksumites need a new, more distinct LT. I know this isn't the best place to discuss the Aksumites, but looking at their design a "increased religious pressure/Faith from Traderoutes" LT would synergize nicely with their EQ and keep it distinct from the Chinese, who can keep their Silk Railroad as is. 


Egyptian

    

Ah, the Egyptian. They are 100% my favorite culture, design wise, even if the numbers aren't quite right. The EU is thematic and feels very strong, the LT and EU are very thematic and bring a very interesting synergy, but I feel the numbers are not right. They feel quite balanced in the era of EQ spam, but since all EQs now are one-per-territory, they fall flat when compared to all per-pop and per-district EQs/LTs. Other than a small numbers change on them to increase the influence granted by both the LT and the EQ (to account the one-per-territory property of EQs), they are super.


Indians

Indians are in a bad spot IMHO. The LT is great and will skyrocket your money income, but that is the only good thing I can talk about it. First, it is an Aesthete with no Influence bonuses; EQ is almost useless at this point in the game as a pure faith producer; and the EU is unreliable at best and weak at worst. I think the Indian culture can work with a weaker EU if its LT and EQ are good enough, and that is why I would suggest to focus the changes on the EQ: give it a +influence bonus to Faith districts. This would make the EQ a capstone for religious strategies and help you spread your sphere of influence, which synergizes with the LT, and give a influence source to match its affinity. 


Swedes


The Swedes showcase my design thoughts for the Indians. They have a very strong LT (similar to the Indians one, but arguably stronger since Science can be stronger than Gold), a very strong EQ, and a weaker EU. I think they are also in a great spot and need no change (if anything, a small numbers nerf on either the LT or the EQ), and they are in a great position right now.


 Turks

The Turks are similar to the Australians in that they are not very exciting or unique, but the bonuses are strong and focused enough to make them good enough. If anything, I think the Public School feels too generic, and could use a small adjacency bonus to make it more satisfying to place down, but I'm fine with a weaker EQ as the LT is very strong (it solves any stability problem you might have in the game) and the EU is very interesting. I suggest changing the name from "Public School" to "Darülfünunu" and give it a small +faith adjacency bonus.


 Americans


The USA design has gathered a bunch of controversy, but I don't think it is that bad. I think the EU is quite strong and versatile, and it is where most of the "power budget" of the culture was spent. The LT is not exciting but feels good enough, and the weakest part of the kit is the EQ. I think its influence bonus should be bigger and work on all Garrisons, not only on adjacent, but other than that I'm fine with the design of it being a hybrid defensive/influence building (which the Assyrian Dunnu should have been too, but I digress). 


Soviets

Soviets have a laser-pointed focused design that is borderline too strong. Other than the uninspired LT, i absolutely love the design. The EQ is the shining part of the kit, being both strong, unique and exciting. The RAT EU is the swarm infantry of the era, and feels too strong with the 60 CS and Flood ability, but I may be wrong on this part. Red Tide is, imho, just outright bad - it is the third time (first Myceneans, then Aztecs, now Soviets) it shows up and its not even a great nor interesting LT to begin with. To fit the same "extra industry" vibe, I would suggest a complete rework of the LT to "gain 2% extra industry on cities for each Strategic Resource deposit on the city". While also being a industry LT, it would be more versatile than -25% unit industry cost, be tied to territorial expansion, and have a interesting dynamic with the Arms Factory, since each extra territory in the city would cost stability and you would have to balance whether you want more industry or CS with your stability.


Japanese



I can't comment on the Japanese as the LT wasn't disclosed due to a tooltip error. The Robotics Lab is good, on par with the Strip Mine, and the Reisen is hard to evaluate because we don't know how Contemporary Air units work (if any, I feel like its CS is too weak since it has a negative trait). If the LT is strong enough, however, there's no problem in having a weaker EU.  

Updated 4 years ago.
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4 years ago
Jun 2, 2021, 1:37:06 PM

Can say anything about units since I don't have the generic contemporary ones to compare with, but about abilites and ED:

  • Australians: ED is very strong in underdeveloped cities, weak in developed cities, fit the builder aspect of taking underdeveloped cities and make them developed. Ability is just a reliable but relative weak bonus. Good choice if you have alot of empty land and cities with few districts.
  • Brazilians: The more population you have the better and that syngergize well with agarian, only issue is how similar the EQ is to celts, celt one should probably get nerfed and brazilian one could stay as it is now.
  • Chinese: Ability is your average merchant one, nothing special. The ED look like a better hamlet that encourage building market quarters around it, however for a contemporary EQ it seems weak.
  • Egyptian: A great way to make your past more rewarding, they seems designed on building a single megacity as the archaeological dig scale with the number of emblematic districts your city have including each other, build 10 of those in a single city and each of them will give atleast 30 influence just from the +3 influence from emblematic districts.
  • Indians: Asthete that don't produce any additional influence, but instead give a reward for having a large sphere of influence. I'm not sure I would say the ED is weak, it may give your religion total control over the whole world, but maybe it could give influence based on the number of territories under your religions control.
  • Swedes: A culture designed around doing one thing well and that is science, require alot of setup as you somehow need strong culture output for the trait and alot of districts for the ED and like Egyptians you want a single mega city due to how the ED scale, a city with 100 districts, each ED would produce 300 science. In the right setup Swedes may be very overpowered, but in other cases it may be a rather weak choice.
  • Turks: The ability basically mean your cities will always be 100% stable. The public school have very strong synergy with agarian and again encourage a mega city design, have a city with 10 public schools and each population is worth 10 science.
  • Americans: The ability look unreliable and while influence have synergy with expansionist, trade do not. May be strong depending on how the trade influence actually work. The ED is simply weak beyond like ancient era and maybe even in ancient era as I don't see any reason to build it. If it was +2 influence to each garrison in the city or maybe even better +2 influence, +2 science and +2 money, it could be alot more interesting and useful.
  • Soviets: Seems overpowered, ED is effectively +1 combat strength per territory, making your armies reach strengths that will make them instantly kill everything.
  • Japanese: An early EU which according to the wiki will upgrade seems to conflict with scientist affinity, however maybe an early EU is more useful since you have time to use it before the game ends. The ED give a decent amount of resources no matter what, but don't scale that much.
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4 years ago
Jun 2, 2021, 2:00:32 PM

I disagree with your opinions on the power of the Archaeological Dig. While the LT does seem somewhat subpar compared to the loaded LTs of the other Contemporary Era Cultures (although I would argue that it'd likely give you more Influence than American Exceptionalism), I think that the EQ is definitely not as bad as you say. It's true that the fact that the EQ only affects Emblematic Districts makes it less useful than other EQs that can affect all Districts, the fact that the Archaeological Dig is capable of affecting all Emblematic Districts at all already puts it to be an above-average EQ. Even in the Contemporary Era, I would argue that it's better than about half of the EQs there. 

Let's say that you've merged all of your Territory into a single City, and you've got around 20 Territories. Let's also assume that you have no EQs whatsoever in any of these 20 Territories at this moment. By building 20 Archaeological Digs in those Territories, you are now giving all Emblematic Districts +60 Influence. Multiply that by the 20 Archaeological Digs you've just built, and you're getting 1200 Influence. Add in EQs from previous eras, and possibly some more Territory if you've been aggressively expanding earlier on, and you can see that this can easily turn into a huge amount of Influence.

Also, I don't believe that all EQs can only be placed once per Territory. It might be a bug, but I think that there are a considerable number of EQs in the Early Modern Era that can be placed multiple times in a Territory (the Venetian, Spanish, Mughal, and Ottoman EQs, I believe). As such, you might be able to spam down EQs everywhere in the Early Modern Era, which can make the Archaeological Dig a bit more useful. 


In addition, I would argue that while the EQ and EU of the Indians aren't the greatest, the LT is positively broken. If I'm interpreting it correctly, it can rather easily triple your Money income, which is quite ridiculous. It's true that none of their abilities make sense for an Aesthete, and it would be better to have stronger EQs and EUs in return for toning down the LT. I really like your idea for the EQ, and it could definitely help make it stronger. However, balance-wise, I believe that they're one of the stronger Cultures, and are definitely not in a bad spot. One note is that with Angkor Wat, the Ashram (and all of the Faith EQs, actually) becomes a lot better, being like a Nemeton that also gives a huge amount of Faith. 

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4 years ago
Jun 2, 2021, 2:55:17 PM
Goodluck wrote:
ED is effectively +1 combat strength per territory, making your armies reach strengths that will make them instantly kill everything

Yeah, this definitely worries me, I really enjoyed Hittites in Victor OpenDev due to LT essentially winning me a couple of tough battles and it's just +1. This CS boost spam seems outright terrifying. The additional stability malus that keeps growing with every additional district makes maybe the ED soft-limited more to one-per-city rather than one-per-territory, but I do wonder if that additional cost becomes too prohibitive before your armies can just steamroll everyone around.


That one and the Turkish LT are the two things that don't sit well with me.

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4 years ago
Jun 2, 2021, 3:10:25 PM

I have a very general issue with the design of quarters in this game: Adjacency boni are so circumstantial that they're mostly useless, unless it doesn't matter what the adjacency is. Seeing something giving extra science "per adjacent science quarter" already makes me not want to take that culture, unless there is also a huge static resource ability attached to the EQ. You'd think this would have been obvious after the experience with the district snakes in Endless Legend.

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4 years ago
Jun 2, 2021, 4:35:35 PM
Goodluck wrote:
Turks: The ability basically mean your cities will always be 100% stable.

As cool of a legacy trait as that is, does it fit the past century of Turkish history accurately? Given the number of military coups and issues with kurdish groups seeking independence I would argue no. I have no issue with Turkey being in the game but I do not think they are accurately represented.

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4 years ago
Jun 2, 2021, 4:38:59 PM
docktorkain wrote:
I think the Indian culture can work with a weaker EU if its LT and EQ are good enough, and that is why I would suggest to focus the changes on the EQ: give it a +influence bonus to Faith districts. This would make the EQ a capstone for religious strategies and help you spread your sphere of influence, which synergizes with the LT, and give a influence source to match its affinity. 

This is the perfect change to make the Indian's a good culture, as right now I agree with you that they sound cool in theory but are weak in execution.


I feel the same way about America. There's some good stuff there, but they just are missing that one final thing to make them great. My change would be to make the defense agency not only buildable in your vassal's territories as well as your own (similar to the Bristish Colonial Office), but also make it a military spawn point. That way, you can quickly train units to fight in your proxy wars and continue expansion.

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4 years ago
Jun 2, 2021, 6:30:01 PM
docktorkain wrote:
I suggest changing the name from "Public School" to "Darülfünunu" and give it a small +faith adjacency bonus.

While I agree the term "Public School" is pretty generic, I think it's symbolizing/based on Atatürk's reform of Turkish education system and overall Turkish state's reform as a secular state. While I can't think of a better term, "Public School" is probably a bit too "frenchy" biased (historically speaking, public school in France is secular (Ecole publique), while private school (Ecole privée) is non-secular). 

Though, I think your suggestion of +faith adjacency bonus is not fitting this secular representation. Moreover, the name you suggest littteraly means "House of Sciences", which arguably wouldn't be associated with religion/faith.

As a side note, though I'm not fluent in turkish, I do have a bit of knowledge : "Darülfünunu" should actually by written "Darülfünun" if it ever has to be used as a noun to replace "Public School". The last "u" is the turkish preposition "of", as in Darülfünun-u Osmani (Ottoman House of Sciences) or Darülfünunu İstanbul (Istanbul House of Sciences) and the whole term comes from Arab language : dar (ev in turkish, "house") and fünun (fenler in turkish, "sciences") : https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dar%C3%BClf%C3%BCnun


docktorkain wrote:: 
I would remove the + food for pops (which is very strong for sure, but is also the defining Nemeton quality) and give it + food on ALL tiles in the territory the EQ is built in.

The LT is +2 Food / Farmers (not mentioning the rest), so that would mean at least +3 Food / Farmers, if you build only 1 Brazilian EQ per city's region. Building one per territory owned by the city would even increase it by +1 per each territory. As @Goodluck mentioned, the more population you'll have, the more it will scale. If anything, I have the feeling that the change you propose would actually nerf the EQ.

Updated 4 years ago.
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4 years ago
Jun 3, 2021, 1:24:24 PM

I think Arms Factory of Soviets could be potentially game-breaking. -10 stability per Weapon would be nothing in Contemporary Era, especially with the certain combinations of cultures(such as Italians in the Industrial Era)  and careful planning of districts. A stronger negative effect of Weapon must exist to prevent spamming. What about... new equation?

-10 stability per Weapon per Arms Factory on all cities. This way it would be exponential (y = -10 x^2)

1 Weapon deposit > -10 stability x 1 Weapon x1 Arms Factory = -10 stability on all cities

2 Weapon deposit > -10 stability x 2 Weapon x 2 Arms Factory = - 40 stability on all cities
3 Weapon deposit > -10 stability x 3 Weapon x 3 Arms Factory = -90 stability on all cities

4 Weapon deposit > -10 stability x 4 Weapon x 4 Arms Factory = -160 stability on all cities


Also, in order to make "cold-war" theme more interesting, I would like to suggest a small change in Emblematic Districts/Quarters. Americans would have Military-Industrial Complex, which would produce Weapon as well. However, Soviets produce Red Weapon and American produce Blue Weapon. And stability disadvantage must be the same.

As for the effect, it hard to imagine what would be the most interesting effects. Should they counter each other, so that we can revitalize old cold war? Or should Red/Blue Weapon exclusive, so that purchasing only one of them are possible? Or should me make them quite distinctive? Here are possible options:


1) Weapons counter each other (example)

Red Weapon: +1 Combat Strength per Red Weapon on Unit, +1 Combat Strength per Red Weapon on Unit when attacking Unit armed with Blue Weapon.
Blue Weapon: +1 Combat Strength per Blue Weapon on Unit, +1 Combat Strength per Red Weapon on Unit when attacking Unit armed with Red Weapon.


2) Exclusive purchase
Players cannot have both Red Weapon and Blue Weapon. Both of them provide +1 Combat Strength per Weapon on Unit. Possible demands for having Weapon of competitor could also make it diplomatically more interesting?


3) Distinctive traits (example)
Red Weapon: +1 Combat Strength per Red Weapon on Unit, when attacking

Blue Weapon: +1 Combat Strength per Blue Weapon on Unit, when defending
or

Red Weapon: +1 Combat Strength per Red Weapon on certain Unit type (like armored Unit? or ground Units)

Blue Weapon: +1 Combat Strength per Blue Weapon on certain Unit type (like fighter? or naval/airborne Units)

Updated 4 years ago.
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