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An issue with my enemy surrendering.

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4 years ago
Aug 30, 2021, 3:54:25 AM

First let me say I like the model the game uses for managing wars, but I encountered a frustrating situation in my current game that I think should be addressed.


I had complete control of one continent except for one city that an AI player had gained by influencing a minor city. So they owned it, fine. I went to war with them and easily took it over. They had no more troops on my continent and their warscore ticked down by 4 per turn. However once they got to 4 warscore they offered to surrender to me, but they didn't offer the occupied city as part of my reparations. I refused their surrender and they gained warscore and I lost warscore. This process repeated 3 times until I was running out of warscore and had to accept the reparations of money only and they still had one city on my continent.


This was a bit frustrating and seems silly given I thrashed them, I occupied their city, their one city on my continent, but I couldn't make them give it to me.

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4 years ago
Aug 30, 2021, 4:19:15 AM

Yes.  Some would mistakenly argue that it is an abstraction of losing popular support for a war.  It is certainly not that.  I call it an abstraction of an omniscient deity dictating idyllic outcomes according to some obscure celestial set of rules that humans aren't wise enough to understand.


Of course a loser of a war cannot dictate the terms for resolving that war.  But in Humankind it happens all the time.  Often it goes further than that; actually declaring the winner of the war chosen by means having nothing whatsoever to do with military might.  If a loser lacks the raw power to dictate terms to the victor, and the victor is forced to accept those terms anyway, what, other than a deity, could explain an otherwise victorious leader being forced to accept unfavorable terms that he does not agree with?


It's a ridiculous game mechanic that doesn't really belong in any player driven game; but most certainly not in one called, "Humankind."  Mere tuning will not fix it. Codifying strategic decisions and shoving them down a human player's throat programmatically is weaksauce design. Tuning might make it spicy or mild weaksauce, but it will still be weaksauce no matter what. It needs to go away entirely in the next patch; sooner rather than later.

Updated 4 years ago.
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4 years ago
Aug 30, 2021, 5:02:41 AM

Mmm I get the sentiment but I'm not sure I completely agree. The game needs to impose some mechanical restrictions for the purpose of gameplay. Imagine being on the receiving end of that deal from an AI player that defeats you? I guess the intention is to draw out the process of the war between two nations so it can't be resolved either way in one big bang. It's quite easy to push your warscore back up again if you try, and then you can go to war again and grab more cities.

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4 years ago
Aug 30, 2021, 5:42:49 AM

I think we are closer to agreeing than you might think.  I think war support is a novel and important concept that should be represented in the game.  In my opinion, however, the game does not do that.  It should, but this deity abstraction doesn't cut it.  In reality war support has a domestic effects.  War support does not bypass the commander-in-chief and issue orders directly to troops overseas; which is how Humankind implements war support right now.  


For instance, the game could translate lost war support into escalating instability in home territories.  This would both be much more realistic and would also introduce a consequence that would harness the otherwise unrestrained tendencies of rampaging leaders.  Most importantly, it would put the decision of whether to continue or end a war in the hands of the player, rather than in an algorithm.

Updated 4 years ago.
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4 years ago
Aug 30, 2021, 10:09:40 AM

Offering (non-forced) surrenders with insulting proposals to basically cheat yourself more war support is a way the AI abuses the system yes.


However (unlike forced surrenders which is horrible) you can just ignore the offered surrender without accepting or refusing it. Just close the diplomatic window, you will be able to continue to the next round. So this aspect can be defended against.

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4 years ago
Aug 30, 2021, 1:32:11 PM
Guryon wrote:

First let me say I like the model the game uses for managing wars, but I encountered a frustrating situation in my current game that I think should be addressed.


I had complete control of one continent except for one city that an AI player had gained by influencing a minor city. So they owned it, fine. I went to war with them and easily took it over. They had no more troops on my continent and their warscore ticked down by 4 per turn. However once they got to 4 warscore they offered to surrender to me, but they didn't offer the occupied city as part of my reparations. I refused their surrender and they gained warscore and I lost warscore. This process repeated 3 times until I was running out of warscore and had to accept the reparations of money only and they still had one city on my continent.


This was a bit frustrating and seems silly given I thrashed them, I occupied their city, their one city on my continent, but I couldn't make them give it to me.

You have to have a grievance towards the foreign empire that lets you demand that city you want and you have to demand that city before you go to war. Open demands must always be fulfilled in the surrender terms. Going to war without any open demands is a gambling game in regard to the offered surrender terms.

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4 years ago
Aug 30, 2021, 2:28:45 PM

If i am not mistaken you can close the negotiations and end your round without refusing or accepting. This way you wont lose warscore and the AI wont gain some. This may repeat several times but ultimatly you may be offered the city.

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