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Unit slots, what's the point?

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3 years ago
Feb 22, 2022, 1:02:52 PM

Since you can reinforce with how many units you want, and reinforcement technology comes before '+1 Unit slot' technologies, what is even the point of unlocking such 'bonuses'?


Shouldn't these 'slots' instead be the maximum number of units you can have simultaneously on a battle map? How I imagine it could work:

  • Your armies can stack up to 9 (or even more) units from the beginning of the game, for convenience of moving them around the map in only one player action.
  • When you enter a battle, they are all stacked like reinforcements
  • In the deploy phase, you can select units out of this stack, up to a maximum that depends on your 'unit slots' and place them on the battlefield
  • During each combat phase, you can draw reinforcements in, from the stack that originated the battle, or any army that came as reinforcement, but you can't never exceed this 'unit slots' limit for units placed on the battlefield simultaneously.
  • This should apply to militia during sieges as well, they could be mixed with other defenders units, but you should not go over that 'unit slots' limit simultaneously. Otherwise, defender will always attempt a sortie before any siege occurs.
I believe that 8/9 units is well enough for the size of the battlefields, and it should keep some empty tiles to allow cavalry to do its role instead of being swarmed by infantry. Romans should also have a boost with their +1 Unit slot LT.




Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Feb 22, 2022, 4:02:35 PM

Hi @raaaahman 
It is interesting some of the thing as apply to the militia as well. But having more capacities on armies have advantages over the fact of only using reinforcements: 
- If I attack you first you can not deploy your reinforcement until your turn, so I could just eliminate your 1 unit.

- Also, i could, potentially block your spawn area, so you could not use your reinforcement as well.


To clarify from the beginning you don´t have 9 slots, if not mistaken you have 4 at the beginning of the game, and then you increase it as you mention.


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3 years ago
Feb 22, 2022, 4:45:20 PM
Daarkarr0w wrote:

- If I attack you first you can not deploy your reinforcement until your turn, so I could just eliminate your 1 unit.

- Also, i could, potentially block your spawn area, so you could not use your reinforcement as well.

On the paper, I agree. Although this doesn't seem to come into play pretty often:

  • If my unit is alone, I'll probably flee anyway.
  • If my reinforcement spawn is in my deployment zone, or just behind it, because I kept my armies close together, then I'll be able to protect it.
  • If my reinforcing army is not part of the battle yet, I might choose when and where it joins the fight.
Even if the stars did align, or your time your attack perfectly, and manage to isolate my one army stack, the only thing that my '+1 Unit slot per army' may change is that you can now stomp 5 of my units with your 8/12/16/... instead of just 4. That's not much of an advantage.

That was the actual state of the game.

The 9 units stack from the beginning was part of my proposal to change it: you can stack all of them from the start, but can only use a number of them simultaneously in battle, depending on your tech advancement (4 to the full 9). The remaining units stand as reinforcement (even though they were part of the same stack on the world map).
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3 years ago
Feb 22, 2022, 4:57:30 PM

I still would like to see a way to restrict how many units/reinforcing armies can be called in per battle/turn. I realize it would be difficult to balance, especially in case of multiple armies that stand together and are called into battle immediately, but it sometimes feels cheap to just be able to pile units in indefinitely. Being forced to hold for a couple of turns before fresh soldiers can be thrown into a grinder would make for some tense situations, I think, though I can see how some players would frown at slowing down the pacing of battles even more - especially people playing on default and faster speed.


In general I feel like I'm having a vastly different experience by playing almost exclusively on Endless, from reading feedback, watching streams/videos and finally playing on Normal myself for Endless Mod sake.

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3 years ago
Feb 22, 2022, 5:35:29 PM
DNLH wrote:
I still would like to see a way to restrict how many units/reinforcing armies can be called in per battle/turn.

Best way I can see this happening is through the Stealth Units.

Basically:

Having one stealth unit inside an army is enough to prevent all combatant teams from being able to reinforce ongoing battles, or even retreat, until those stealth units are eliminated.



DNLH wrote:
I realize it would be difficult to balance

Oh yeah:

  • There WILL be complaints from players who hate that their overwhelming force is being defeated by a limited number of units using what is essentially an interpretation of gorilla tactics.
  • There will be complaints from players who hate that they can't reinforce their battles--especially if out-of-battle-bombardment can not assist in battles where a saboteur unit is present.
  • There will be  complaints from players losing wars--because another player is able to farm warscore through limited reinforcement battles.
And so on and so forth.
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3 years ago
Feb 23, 2022, 5:11:53 PM

The army slot system is currently useless. This system made sense on Endless Legend because only the attacked and defending armyi is deployed. On Humankind, all adjacent armies deploy. In the end, there are quickly dozens of units deploying in attack and defense. Having more units per army does not bring any advantage. This system has been adopted by default but does not correspond to Humankind.


"- If I attack you first you can not deploy your reinforcement until your turn, so I could just eliminate your 1 unit. "


In multiplayer, players do their best to attack first. They protect their main armies with scouts. If the enemy attacks a scout, you retreat whenever you want, and attack a main army (4-5 units). By the way, the advantage of the attacker is so great, that we apply a rule: it is forbidden to block army reinforcements in round 1 of a battle.

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3 years ago
Feb 23, 2022, 8:47:35 PM
Jojo_Fr wrote:


"- If I attack you first you can not deploy your reinforcement until your turn, so I could just eliminate your 1 unit. "


In multiplayer, players do their best to attack first. They protect their main armies with scouts. If the enemy attacks a scout, you retreat whenever you want, and attack a main army (4-5 units). By the way, the advantage of the attacker is so great, that we apply a rule: it is forbidden to block army reinforcements in round 1 of a battle.

When you dev dont have better idea to solve this problem then it should be opposite ! Defender should have advantage over the attacker, so defender attack first :)

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3 years ago
Feb 24, 2022, 12:13:23 AM

I LOVE defending unit slots xD I'm a Roman lover xD


More slots means

-you get a slight discount on having bigger stacks

-your iron reserves appears in stacks of x rather than stacks of 4, and when you defend from a siege

-you can play more openly and haphazardly than normal knowing you don't NEED to reinforce every time

-the AI is more afraid, I get more battle initiations when I have bigger stacks than I do when just coming in with 4 and nearby reinforcements

-you can ransack more easily and better


say what you like, but saying 'it doesn't work because of the way I play so that means it's dumb' is not an excuse. Everybody does not play the way you play, I'd go crazy playing my game super carefully, slowly expanding and always being behind until the very end. I'd rather play balls to the wall and having more units around in bigger stacks makes life easier for me! Again it may not be better if I get attacked but it intimidates the AI in that I feel I don't get attacked very often.


I will say, in multiplayer it is much less relevant I'm sure (I have not played mp games yet).

Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Feb 25, 2022, 9:04:01 AM
Jojo_Fr wrote:

In multiplayer, players do their best to attack first. They protect their main armies with scouts. If the enemy attacks a scout, you retreat whenever you want, and attack a main army (4-5 units).

Sounds like a fitting role for scouts. Maybe the attacker should not loose all its movement if the defender flees?


Pdraggy wrote:


More slots means

-you get a slight discount on having bigger stacks

-your iron reserves appears in stacks of x rather than stacks of 4, and when you defend from a siege

- ...

-you can ransack more easily and better

I overlooked these bonuses, thank you for pointing them out. Although I do believe that they are still a little underwhelming and hard to notice. What are the number for these?


The fact that the AI is more hesitant to attack bigger stacks might need some confirmation from the devs. I do believe that if the AI is capable of seeing your reinforcements stacks, it will calculate the total strength of the combined stacks before deciding to engage or not.

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3 years ago
Mar 1, 2022, 7:27:02 AM

What I meant by the ability to play 'more haphazardly' was because I simply didn't know how to describe what I meant. What I mean is many times the cpu likes to 'cheat' you know, like you walk up next to them intending to call your reinforcements IMMEDIATELY after but the battle starts because the turns are simultaneous rather than sequential. or you start moving your troops onto a city but upon putting your forward group next to the walls they attack you cuz again, the cpu acts simultaneously. I'm just saying a larger stack of units could keep the cpu from triggering a battle with you and you can start from turn 1a with all of your units- it could mean the difference between half your units killed and a total slaughter of the enemy because you had all your units in round 1 and went first.

raaaahman wrote:
The fact that the AI is more hesitant to attack bigger stacks might need some confirmation from the devs. I do believe that if the AI is capable of seeing your reinforcements stacks, it will calculate the total strength of the combined stacks before deciding to engage or not.

That's the point though, as I told a youtuber hating on the Romans, anything you can do the Romans can do better! You can come in with 4 and reinforce with 4 or even 8 etc. well the Romans can come in with 5 and reinforce with 5 or even 10 etc.! Anything you can do, the Romans can do better- when you gain another slot on the tech tree... so do the Romans, you just canNOT gain the one they have via their culture skill. No other culture can have 9 units in a single stack.


Alternatively this is why I believe the Romans are just TOO STRONG they didn't even need to be buffed but now that they are they are just SUPER STRONG (I actually don't think they got buffed very much... but all the same) lol. All other cultures add more to your muchness so to speak, but the Romans ALONE give you an advantage no AI can outweigh. If you lose with the Romans you TRULY suck just sayin'. Even the Achaemenid Persians +2 city cap can be outweighed by having SO MUCH influence you go over city cap. In my Zhou -> Mauryan game I had 3 or 4 cities over my cap by the medieval, 6 over cap by pre-modern and with the Ming I could do anything I needed to (I combined cities but anyway). Romans are *chefs kiss* in my book, Anyway :D

Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Mar 5, 2022, 10:17:53 AM

The system of Endless Legend can be used.

So you have units slots inside your main plaza (first era 4 slots, can be increased with technology later on). When you create units, you can create only 4 units at the same time since the unit slots will be full. Only when those four units leave the slots/city (the garrisson in EL) can you create new units. It's also an easy way to garrisson units inside your city without seeing them standing on your city tile during the whole bloody game.


I've added a picture of this system in a different page of this forum  https://www.games2gether.com/amplitude-studios/humankind/forums/169-game-design-and-ideas/threads/47876-garrissoning-units-in-main-cities-like-in-endless-legend?page=1#post-350473

Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Mar 9, 2022, 8:49:41 AM
Pdraggy wrote:

That's the point though, as I told a youtuber hating on the Romans, anything you can do the Romans can do better! You can come in with 4 and reinforce with 4 or even 8 etc. well the Romans can come in with 5 and reinforce with 5 or even 10 etc.!

You obviously have more experience with the Romans than I do (since I've yet to play them). Although the debate is not only about the Romans, but any benefits of having more unit slots than your opponent at a given time (maybe because you tech faster, or focus on military).


What I don't really like with your example here, is that just because you have more slots than your opponent, it doesn't mean that you will automatically have more units than he does. So, in the case one player has three stacks of 4, 4 and 2 units, and another one has two stacks of 5 and 5 units (similar strength and army composition). Do you believe any player has a clear advantage just because of the stacks size? Or will any player that attack first have the advantage anyway?

 

Elchardus wrote:

The system of Endless Legend can be used.

So you have units slots inside your main plaza (first era 4 slots, can be increased with technology later on). When you create units, you can create only 4 units at the same time since the unit slots will be full. Only when those four units leave the slots/city (the garrisson in EL) can you create new units. It's also an easy way to garrisson units inside your city without seeing them standing on your city tile during the whole bloody game.

If the garrisoned units are free of upkeep, it might give another slight benefit to have more units per stack, yes.

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3 years ago
May 9, 2022, 5:15:19 AM

I don't disagree that reinforcement is crazy good and Organized Warfare needs to be beelined for the most part, but I find that there's still value in having more unit slots.


It's easier to move multiple units together when they're grouped up in larger stacks. I'd rather micro 4 stacks of 5 units instead of 5 stacks of 4 units, and having more unit slots will simply help even more with streamlining movement and micro. Man, if I have to micro 8 stacks of 4 units when I can micro 4 stacks of 8 units instead...


Also, maps tend to be pretty uneven in HK, and battlefields will run out of tiles to reinforce from. At which point, having more unit slots helps with fielding more units onto a battlefield in narrow spaces.

Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
May 9, 2022, 7:17:21 AM

I love actually dabbling with army composition and figuring it out, but that's really just for sake of own comfort, when you can just keep pouring units in. Additional unit slot is nice to have, but it doesn't give any actual advantage most of the time and may be even a source of annoyance when you max it out, but chosen Romans and now the army display is that ugly, uneven 9 ;P

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3 years ago
May 9, 2022, 6:31:57 PM

I wonder if "only the units in the attacked stack get the defender strength boost" would make it matter more?

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