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[Feedback] Civic: Army Composition - Professional Soldiers bonus is underwhelming

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4 years ago
Dec 22, 2020, 10:01:09 AM

Compared to Conscription decision, enacting Professional Soldiers is very underwhelming. +1 Combat Strength on Unit is good, relatively in early Eras. But as units progress and become even more powerful, the difference becomes more irrelevant. I simply cannot think any reason to pick +1 Combat Strength on Unit over 20% cheaper Unit Production cost.


Therefore, I suggest that Professional Soldiers should be buffed. For instance,

a) +1 Combat Strength on Unit in Ancient Era, +2 Combat Strength on Unit in Classical Era, +3 Combat Strength on Unit in Medieval Era, ... and so on.

b) Make Combat Strength bonus on Unit percentage not an integer value. Maybe 10% or 5%?

c) Logically, professional soldiers would serve in army far longer than conscripted soldiers. Hence, enacting Professional Soldiers should extend Veterancy level to more than 3, and also give units better Experience gain. Optionally giving +2 Combat Strength per each level of Veterancy level might help as well.


These are the examples I could come up with. What do you think?

Updated 4 years ago.
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4 years ago
Dec 22, 2020, 10:14:44 PM

I think it is good that there is incentive to switch civics as the game progresses.


Also I'd argue that the absolute value of strength doesn't seem to matter that much, instead it is the difference between the strength of the attacking and defending unit. On the margin, the +1 is always relevant and doesn't lose value. I'd actually suggest that the unit production cost is more relevant early in the game when you have more limited production. By the end of the medieval, your main cities can crank out a full army each turn without the production cost modifier, making the combat strength a better choice.

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4 years ago
Dec 23, 2020, 1:06:51 AM

Both Professional Army and Conscripts aren't game-changers. Unit production is cheap and unlike districts, doesn't scale. +1 Combat Strength is on the level of the entire Hittite LT, while -20 Unit Production cost is slightly less than Aztecs. Since damage is based around strength difference (i.e. a 15 str unit attacking a 13 str will deal the same damage as a 82 str vs an 80), it doesn't make sense for it to scale over time. Veterancy being able to go to level 4 sounds to weak, and giving an extra +1 strength per level of Veterancy is too strong.

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4 years ago
Dec 23, 2020, 1:18:01 AM

Yep, as other said, the damage is based on the difference, not the absolute values. A 5vs8 combat would do the same damage as a 105vs108 one. So a constant value is fine.

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4 years ago
Dec 23, 2020, 2:15:13 AM

I see... the damage is based upon on Combat Strength difference... That was something I missed. Thanks.


And for "relative" I mean, +1 for 15 Combat Strength Unit is about 6.7% increase, while +1 for 49 Combat Strength Unit is only about 2% increase. Therefore "relative" merit becomes smaller as the base Combat Strength increases.


And for Production, in Lucy OpenDev, Max District cap is apparently disabled, making City management far easier. So Cranking up tremendous amount of Production is very easy. If Max District cap returns in the future, then any reduction to Production cost would be more sensible. Furthermore, we only had up to Early Modern Era units. In later Eras, when every Unit is more expensive,  along with reintroduction of District cap, could increase the strategic value of cheaper Production cost.


Last but not least, among Tier 4 Religion Tenets, there is Meditate Often, which yield +2 Combat Strength bonus to all military Units. Do you think it is okay for the Tenet to boost more Combat Strength than Professional Soldiers?

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4 years ago
Dec 23, 2020, 1:35:52 PM
200mm wrote:

I see... the damage is based upon on Combat Strength difference... That was something I missed. Thanks.


And for "relative" I mean, +1 for 15 Combat Strength Unit is about 6.7% increase, while +1 for 49 Combat Strength Unit is only about 2% increase. Therefore "relative" merit becomes smaller as the base Combat Strength increases.

I think it still is...


When two units have the same CS, it is 20-30 HP damage to both units. Each difference point changes it by 5 on both directions. So a 2 point difference means that the unit with more strength takes 10-20 HP damage, while the other takes 30-40 HP. Min damage is 5-10 and to "one-shot" you need a difference of at least 16.


So there's not much point in looking at the absolute value of the unit to compare which % it is improved, as ideally CS should be more or less equal at the same tech level. Sure, the +1 is pointless in situations in which you have more than 16 CS difference, but it's more of tech advancement thing.

200mm wrote:
And for Production, in Lucy OpenDev, Max District cap is apparently disabled

Not really, it's replaced by quarters adding a hit to stability. It's still very much WIP, so there's a few unbalances there. Hopefully the quarter generation is slowed down in the future.


If they keep the population cost for units, their intent is for production to be lower. In any case, right now the game as I said it's a bit of a mix of old and new ideas, and they are working on a full balance pass.


200mm wrote:
Last but not least, among Tier 4 Religion Tenets, there is Meditate Often, which yield +2 Combat Strength bonus to all military Units. Do you think it is okay for the Tenet to boost more Combat Strength than Professional Soldiers?

Depends... If we look at it from a "reality/common sense/believability" point of view, yeah, it doesn't make much sense. If we look at it from a mechanical balance one, the civic is MUCH easier to get, so it makes sense the reward is a bit lower.

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4 years ago
Dec 29, 2020, 6:17:19 PM

Honestly I think the combat strength bonus is better than the production reduction in many cases. Comparing units you come to realize that most combat bonuses come from being ahead of your opponent in tech so you have better units, and cultural bonuses. The +1 combat strength bonus is an addition to this that can really push your STR potentially and hit benchmarks you couldn't otherwise, like having the conquistadors in my spanish game being able to one-shot civilian units, and thus a single conquistador unit had the power to conquer every single AI. Meanwhile the production cost reduction just means it'll be cheaper to buy my units when the time comes, it should be a better bonus.

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