The OpenDev is pretty much over and I've played for 34 hours, so I'd like to share my experiences and feedback, hoping it helps to improve the game. This post will contain a lot of criticism; this is not because I didn't enjoy the game (I did), but because the weak points are the things that can use the most improvement :)
I won't go into general balance too much. Plenty of others have posted about that, and I assume they'll give everything a proper rebalancing before release.
Context
I've played the game for 33.9 hours. This playtime consisted of two games; the first time I was starting around and didn't understand many aspects of the game at first, so after getting into a dull gamestate around turn 105 (I was warring with others on my starting continent who due to my poor start were powerful enough to be a nuisance but due to better play later were not any actual challenge) I decided to restart the game and play better but also with a very different strategy this time around. This second game I finished. I had intended to play it on a higher difficulty setting but couldn't find the setting when I started (I later discovered it's right there on the main menu, maybe I'm just blind).
My first run went Egyptians -> Maya -> Franks -> Dutch. My second run went Phoenicians -> Greeks -> Greeks (kept civ) -> Mughals.
I have uploaded the contents of my save folder to http://vdzserver.org/misc/humankindsaves.zip should you wish to check out my game state at various points (I save every few turns usually).
My final score on the second run was 9463 fame.
I've played 694 hours of Civ V, 131 hours of Civ VI, 83 hours of Civ BE and 47 hours of Endless Legend. (This experience will have made many things more intuitive to me than players less familiar with games like this.) The only other Amplitude game I've played was a tiny bit (3 hours) of Endless Space 1. I've also played quite a few other strategy games of various kinds, as well as a good number of board games.
General experience
I loved the Neolithic Era gameplay. It was a very unusual start for a Civ-like game but it fit really well and it was engaging in its own way. I also greatly enjoyed the era stars mechanic, providing a list of goals to work towards of which only the ones that fit your current gameplan need to be accomplished (though the game rewards you for going beyond the minimum), while reducing the dominance of science that's present in other games. (Science is still useful, but it's no longer the thing everyone has to focus on all the time.) I liked how Fame acts as a genuine score (whereas other games like this have it as arbitrary number; in Civ V you get the best score by turtling as long as possible on Settler difficulty), allowing for a quantitative comparison of game performance. I also liked how districts work, though the experience in OpenDev was hindered by terrible balancing (see below).
However, the game can become a bit tedious once you have many cities and/or many armies to manage. This is a common problem in games like this. I think the city aspect can be made less tedious by improving the city UI a bit (see below), though for armies I've yet to see any game solve it well.
In OpenDev specifically, the game becomes very dull some time after you reach the final era. You end up without any goals to work towards and with every turn it becomes increasingly a matter of going through the motions until the game finally ends and gives you your victory. With each progression element eliminated - gotten the era stars you were going, researched all interesting techs, built all wonders you could build, upgraded your cities in all relevant ways - it becomes less interesting and more tedious, as you still need to manage everything but aren't really working towards anything. Depending on how the final version's endgame works, this can be a problem for the final game as well. Players need something to keep working towards until the end - if they run out of things to do and the game still hasn't ended the game becomes a slog. Having some way to make the game end earlier (with appropriate fame rewards of course, otherwise getting a high score would still be dull) or a good amount of additional challenges rewarding fame to work towards (the Competitive Deeds alone aren't engaging enough) could prevent the game from becoming dull like this.
Districts
I liked the district mechanic and found the placement rules far more intuitive than Civ VI's, while at the same time it felt the system provided far more depth (do I place this here for a slightly better yield, or do I place it there so I can build the next district in a tile connected to it?, things like that). The tile yields themselves however felt less intuitive (the tiles may not be distinctive enough, or maybe it's just lack of experience) and I had to enable FIDS display whenever I wanted to place a district or outpost.
In this OpenDev, however, the district balancing was atrocious. Food becomes entirely useless past a certain point (and the gap from 50 to 150 made 50 typically the point where you stopped wanting to get extra food), the gold yield for the Market Quarter is abysmal and the trader slot alone is not worth the investment (as cost keeps increasing per district, plus it has a stability cost), and the Research Quarter is underwhelming. The Commons Quarter is interesting in theory, but in practice - along with civ-specific districts that have similar 'adjacent to any district' bonuses - leads to thoughtless strips of the same or similar districts without any regard to terrain.
One district I am particularly concerned about is the Hamlet, which in its current state is completely absurd. The worrying part is that this is not due to numbers that can easily be tweaked but its core design. Its free placement rules typically render it superior to the appropriate type districts for exploitation (you can place your Makers Quarter in position X, but placing a Hamlet just one tile further away gets tile yields that are so much better they exceed the output of the appropriate district). Not only are they better in exploitation (in addition to having the extra bonus that they also exploit the secondary yields), they also provide one worker slot for EACH profession, which makes them absolutely bonkers in large cities. (To put it into perspective, my endgame capital city gets +18 food per farmer, +12 industry per worker, +18 gold per trader and +16 science per scientist - good luck getting those yields from terrain. The link between worker slots and pop cap also means those slots are easily filled. Hamlets need to be nerfed hard, and in a fundamental way. Most districts become useless once you get the Hamlet. (I know the construction cost is higher, but it just doesn't weigh up to the benefits - especially considering you get penalties (stability and district cost) per district you have).
The Garrison is a district I am quite postive about. Its main purpose is to serve as a military outpost for better unit spawn locations (and apparently fortification, but it's never been useful to me in that way), but it's free placement also lets it serve as as 'attach point' to place districts in arbitrary locations. The cost of this is steep but it's a good option to have (as long as it's not completely broken like the Hamlet).
The Greeks' Amphitheatron is incredibly powerful and should probably be nerfed. Clustering these can give you an incredible amount of influence very quickly especially early-game. Using this I started to combine the entire starting continent into one massive city in my second game, and the only thing that stopped my from doing that was the lack of city-razing function combined with the extremely prohibitive cost of merging a city into a large city (for reference, in the endgame attaching an outpost cost me 450 influence while attaching a city cost me between 20,000 and 34,000 influence). I still managed to get it to to reach the north, east, west and south sides of the continent (relatively quickly, too) and eventually managed to spread that city to the continent to the east too (it took a long time because the only connection was a city that required 24k influence to merge).
I've seen people claim the Markers Quarter is broken, but I'm not convinced; it seems balanced accounting for the district cost and stability penalties. The Market Quarter is just trash and the Farmers Quarter has limited use due to how Food works, which makes the Makers Quarter powerful in comparison. Jama Masjid (Mughal industry district) might be broken in large cities, though, and Imperial Magnificence (Mughal ability) is utterly broken in extreme Tall strategies - on turn 149 of my second game, my capital had 13.8k Industry, 9294 of which came from Imperial Magnificence.
User interface
There are a lot of places where the user interface could provide more information to significantly enhance the experience and reduce tedium. Examples I noticed where the UI providing more information would help:
* In the city UI, 'Food' is indicated as only the state (e.g. 'Abundance'). It does not show the level it's at, so I don't know if that's 'just above 50' or 'we have 130 food why are there still Farmers', so I need to mouse-over every time to see if I need to supply additional food or, conversely, move all Farmers to some more useful profession. (This needs to be done for every city so it gets tedious fast.)
* Keywords in civic choices usually aren't explained. How do I choose between applying 'Vassalized City' or applying 'Naturalized City' on new cities when I don't know what it means? Similarly, I once unlocked the 'Exterminate' action and while it sounded really cool I had no idea what it was or how to use it and ended up never Exterminating (other than the exterminating that I was already doing by just crushing my enemies). Being able to mouse-over for a tooltip would be very useful here.
* I was having a very useful religion until I had to choose between Secularism and Atheism. Going purely by the text of what it did, I went for Atheism as it sounded more useful even though the label was weird. When I loaded my save the next day, I was losing my religion! I think it's cool that choices and civics can have non-standard effects (and more of that would be cool), but they really need to be listed ('chance of bad consequences' is sufficient for mysterious things). (Also, Atheism seems completely useless, I didn't really get the point of it.)
* Discoveries give a quick blink-and-you-miss-it notification of what you actually found (both in a lore sense and the yield you get from it), while giving a notification that just says 'new knowledge'. If the notification told me what I found (especially the yield) I could actually consistently tell what I'm getting from it. (You can also trigger them while zoomed out or during auto-move, in which cases you miss is entirely.)
* The notifications are often vague and require you to click or look something up when it could just state it in the notification. Some examples:
** 'Attitude Changed! The Empire 1 now feels differently about you...' - just tell me it changed from X to Y.
** 'World deed locked. A World Deed has been locked by another empire.' - which world deed, and what empire? (Would also be nice for the message when I claim a World Deed.)
** A grievance has been generated (for either side). What grievance?
** 'Empire 3 (AI) reached the with the .' - Cool. Which civ were they before?
** You have unlocked an era star! Nice, but which one? And what was the requirement again, because I can't see it anymore? How much fame did I get for it?
** 'A grievance has been forgiven.' - which one? From which opponent, for that matter?
** 'Population gain' - cool, how many citizens does it have now? (Can I build a unit there yet or should I wait a bit longer?)
* A bit beyond providing more info in the UI, but in War Resolution you can't tell which region exactly you're negotiating for, only which city it belongs to. If regions had their own names and they were also displayed there I could pick specific regions I want to gain control of.
* When inspecting an embarked naval unit, you can't see which transport naval unit they're actually using.
* Based on encountered behavior, Dunnu costs all movement points to move into. This is not reflected in the tooltip. (If I'm mistaken here I don't know what happened, it certainly wasn't a river.)
* For demands, I would like to see what transgression caused that demand (even if some time has passed since the transgression).
* I want to see what era my opponents are in. I don't know with 100% certainty which civs are which eras, and players can use civs from earlier eras so you can't determine their era from that.
* 'A Matter of Diplomacy' - lots of blah blah that's the same every time. The first time it's cool, but after that I want to know - who did I meet?
* When in science mode, I'd still like to see my cumulative production to plan ahead once I get out of science mode.
* 'The Heresy of Science' (not sure if other events force a civic choice) - Forces choice X on 'Scientific Facts', but I don't know what that civic does (I hadn't unlocked it yet). Would be nice if that info was provided as well.
* A notification for an outpost having finished construction would be nice. Often I don't find out an outpost was completed and I could start building an extractor/harbor/city/whatever until a few turns later.
* Similarly, enemies being spotted in my territory should be reason for alarm.
* All the more so when they start ransacking my stuff. Would be nice to find that out before they finish.
The city management screen looks cool but is unwieldy if you have to use it a lot (e.g. you are managing many cities). The use of nameless icons looks cool visually but makes it hard to find that one specific building you want. As especially infrastructures may not always be useful depending on the city and gameplan, there's always quite a few items in the list you don't want. You can switch to 'list mode' but it's still a grid of buildings identified only by their icon (just more compact). Having a named vertical list like Civ does would make it easier to find the right building quickly. The 'constructions' part of the window is also very small and requires a lot of scrolling, especially if you have stuff in the queue (which leaves only a tiny bit of space for the list of possible buildings on 1920x1080 100%). A more consistent ordering would be good, too - they're not ordererd alphabetically, while at the same time e.g. the Pottery Workshop and the Theater are very far apart despite doing the same thing.
AI notifications are inconsistent. Sometimes they're among your notifications, but sometimes you get a red circle on their icon which you very well might miss. Upon clicking it often I have no idea what precisely it was trying to notify me of. It would be nice if all AI notifications were proper notifications and had appropriate descriptions telling me what's up.
AI opponents and diplomacy
It looks like a lot of work went into the diplomacy systems and the representation of AI opponents, but unfortunately most of it fell flat for me. Diplomacy just sucks in OpenDev Lucy, in my opinion.
* The AI opponents feel like they lack personality. They have their own unique looks and have different phrases they say, but their phrases and response all feel extremely generic and often do not fit the situation. (The player's character Lucy is no exception to this - when both refusing a trade treaty and declaring war are THE WORST THING YOU COULD DO!! it becomes hard to take her seriously.) The characters usually just behave like petulant children; when I declare war on someone I want a response of shock or defiance knowing the horrors this implies, not some child shouting I'm a dumb-dumb doing dumb things. Likewise, when I take half of an empire's territory in a forced surrender, I do not expect my victim to act smug about the whole thing or dismiss it like they just lost a game. Where is the despair of someone having everything taken from them or the anger of someone swearing revenge? The responses don't need to be extremely serious, but they need to be at least somewhat fitting for the occasion; currently they feel like background chatter.
* Not helping this matter is the fact they they are called Empire 1, Empire 2, Empire 3 and so on. They're mostly identified by their civ, but their civ changes several times throughout the game, making it a poor identifier for the empire. It would be nice if they had a proper name and that name were used consistently for identifying them rather than the civ they currently happen to have (and will only have for the next 30 or so turns).
* Under certain circumstances you get the option to introduce yourself, but it doesn't feel like a proper introduction even when that happens. More often, you you get the 'A Matter of Diplomacy' notification and immediately some notification of a treaty request or grievance/demand and stuff gets straight down to business with zero introductions. I like how Civ V has a full-screen introduction moment when you first meet a new leader; it really makes the meeting feel special.
* Despite complex systems being involved, you have limited choices in diplomacy. You can choose whether or not to turn a grievance into a demand, whether or not to declare war, and there's a handful of treaties you can sign...and that's it. There are no direct trade options, you can't e.g. demand open borders, you can't offer some money along with your proposal to make them more eager to accept (they can make a counter-proposal but if they refuse you can't offer them a large amount of money to convince them), you can't come to an agreement on specific grievances (you give me your territory and I give you mine, or I'm willing to meet demand X but only if you do the same for me), etc.
* You can only withdraw ALL demands, not some demands. I either have to go to war over all of them including the ones I no longer care about, or I have to drop even the demands I do care about. Would be nice to be able to drop specific demands.
* Demands for transgressions are all pre-set. I agree their attacking me was not OK, but to demand 2000 money while still fairly early in the game? You know they'll never pay because they simply cannot pay that much. Likewise, their settling near me was inconvenient but I'd like to let them off with a promise they won't do it again (the AI in Civ V asks you this all the time); asking them to surrender the outpost/city entirely is a bit much. It would be nice if we could determine our demands for a specific transgression.
* The AI's decision to retreat or not seems to be based on the cumulative combat strength of the armies involved. (I think it even attacks based on these numbers.) However, a single 40-strength unit absolutely slaughters five 10-strength units. The metrics seem to work poorly here.
Things that were unclear to me, but I found out how it worked eventually
* The exploitation system, especially the fact that only the relevant yields get exploited for Farmers/Makers/Merchants/Science Quarter.
* The yields for Projects are permanent, not one-shot or temporary effects. Coming from a Civ background, they're easy to confuse with the one-time boosts you can produce there if you have nothing better to produce.
* An Administered city counts as one Food level higher than a non-Administered city with the same amount of food. This was really confusing to me at first; why was one city with 51 food 'Abundance' while another with 108 food was just 'Plenty'?
* Cultural Transcendence. It said I would get more fame, but how much more fame? I thought it was a one-time boost but it wouldn't tell me how much. Once I tried trascending (to keep the Amphitheatron as the Greeks) I still didn't get how I would be getting more fame and thought it was bugged; none of the fame numbers adjust for the bonus, the 10% bonus (which is only stated when mouse-overing your era ability in the progress screen) is just completely silently added.
Things that were unclear to me even after playing for 34 hours
* The exact rules for disembarking. See e.g. https://i.imgur.com/dqCqspY.jpg ; why can't I just disembark right there? Might be that I understood the rules just fine and it was just bugged.
* When can you start a war, and when can you force a surrender? The latter might be when the enemy's War Desire drops to 0, but the former seems weird; how I can I be at 79 war desire and still unable to declare war?
* How exactly are the the fame rewards for era stars calculated? I get that your specialization gets a bonus, and it seems like 'deeper' stars net more fame (about ~100 additional fame per star), and their value depreciates by 2 per turn, but that still doesn't explain why my second Merchant Star in the final era was at one point worth only 12 fame while e.g. the third Territory star (whatever it's called) was worth 212 at the same point in time.
* 'Grants extra resources from tiles producing the corresponding resource' on some Luxury Resources. What does that mean?
* What determines the influence cost for merging a city into another city? I think the 'size' of the city (however that is determined) is a factor, but even without significant growth the costs seem to keep rising significantly, going from 5k all the way to above 25k throughout the game.
* What is the purpose of Atheism? Atheism has a listed Faith value equal to your Influence value, but it doesn't do anything, does it? The relevant civic also gives you +25% faith under certain conditions...but that doesn't do anything, right?
* What does the Vassal-Liege system do? It costs 150 war score (i.e. the entire war) so I'd like to know what it entails before agreeing to it.
Feature requests
* It would be nice if we could raze cities. (Nice for me, not for the citizens.) I don't always want to be stuck to whatever region layout an opponent decided on, I just want the region and build my cities my way.
* Sometimes you have nothing better to produce and want to just keep producing projects for a while. However, you can't queue the same project more than once, meaning that you frequently have to re-specify that you want to work on that project (and the projects are all the way at the bottom of the list too). It would make city management for some cities a lot less tedious if you could queue the same project multiple times if you just want a city to e.g. produce as much influence as possible.
* I like the mechanic of discoveries in that there's random stuff you can find. However, the reward is always boring. It would be nice if there were more unique rewards (perhaps special events triggered by discoveries, or suddenly getting a unit, or some unique benefit) so it's a surprise what you find there.
* Similarly, events are cool in theory, but in practice are often a choice between insigifcant yield A on your cities or insignificant yield B on your cities. Having more unique effects would be cool. (I really liked getting ships for telling Columbus I'll oversee the naval exploration myself.)
Some bugs I noticed
* The 'Punish' option in the 'Bickering Lords' decision showed two squares with Xes in them rather than its effects.
* The 'Eighty Days' (circumnavigate the world), Contenental Rise (conquer a continent) and A Cultured Land competitive deeds are all broken. This cost me 450 fame on my 9463 fame run :(
* The AI can offer you a crisis defusal proposal when you have a number of demands and they have 0 demands. That's just dumb, nobody would accept that.
* I ended a war (forcing a surrender) while a battle was going on. The battle did not stop, but I could not make a move in battle (and thus couldn't end my turn). I could end my turn by enabling auto-battle, but the battle got stuck shortly afterwards with it being neither player's turn. (This is in my save files as 'Stuck in battle'.) When closing the game after this, the game remained running for much longer than usual, and for longer than my patience allowed; I ended up killing it via Task Manager.
* It happened that I moved my army onto a city to siege it, and it became a battle without me choosing to assault, with me as defender (I guess the city itself can choose to proactively drive away the siege too?); my stated objective was 'Defend your flag' but after killing most of the attackers and retaining control of my flag the UI said the result was 'defeat' (with me listed as attacker and the enemy as defender). My army did not retreat, however.
* Not sure if this is a UI issue, but at least the Attack Prediction does not show an increase of combat strength for cavalry's Charge ability.
* Neither the Hunnic nor the Mongol hordes count as Cavalry, making Pikemen useless against them.
* Sometimes the icons in the constructions list in the City UI become invisible. I'm not sure what causes it; it may be related to the number of icons in the list. Common in the endgame.
* I unlocked the religious civic 'Existential Chasms' while Atheist. Their insights threaten the established truths of Atheism. Hm. I couldn't actually enact the Civic.
* When entering a new era, the camera hovers over your empire so you can see your buildings upgrade. Cool. Unless you have your pointer on the edge of the screen, in which case you see the ocean and/or whatever landmasses the scrolling camera moves over. Would be better to lock the camera to not disrupt this moment.
* Nomadic Tribes are weird. I locked another player in the Neolithic for at least 64 turns (probably closer to 100) and it caused some weird aspects. I don't know if the AI is just a pro at surviving with one army every time, but no matter how many nomads I killed he always survived and kept popping up somewhere. (This part might just be me being bad at exterminating cavemen.) Sometimes, when trying to attack them, I was unable to because I would have to 'declare war' and I 'don't have enough War Desire'. Thing is, until they leave the Neolithic you can't meet them as a proper empire and thus can't declare war on them. (This also means that if you were to manage to exterminate them or prevent them from progressing for the whole game, you can go the entire game without meeting one of your opponents.)
* Celebrating does weird stuff sometimes. I once got 285 stability from it, which is more than the +15 it says it gives.
Some random opinions
* Veterancy is boring. +1 strength doesn't do much but mostly it's just not exciting. This in contrast to e.g. Civ V's promotion system which can give exciting new abilities.
* Naval Artillery is an uninteresting tech. Three-Masted Ship comes earlier and provides several benefits (including an administrator) and lets you cross the ocean with units you already have. It also allows you to research Chartered Companies, so after researching TMS you don't even want NA to reach the tech beyond it. For me this resulted in it being the last tech I learned, and it caused me to perform naval exploration primarily through land units, which I don't think the design wants to push players towards.
* Playhouse is unlocked after Festival, and is more expensive than the first few iterations of Festival. This makes it underwhelming and unexciting.
Tough to post a feedback after this very complete, and spot-on feedback. Thank you VDZ, I "plusone" everything you said/wrote.
I only managed to play for 13.5 hours (apprently kids need some attention too), and couldn't finish my one and only game (I started another run with my 10-y old boy, he found it fun at the beginning, but got bored at city-management, he's more into moving troops and killing mammoths I guess).
I am a 4X veteran (spent all my youth on CIV 1, skipped CIV2 then spent hundreds of hours in CIV3,4,5,6 with all extensions. I also am a fan of Endless Space 1&2 + Legend)
Here is a copy/paste of my post-it notes during the game. Sorry it is bullet-pointed
Bottom line is: I can't wait to play the final version !!!
Opinions
Music is great !
The game is indeed very fun and replayability seems … endless :-)
The “attach outpost” option is confusing, how is having a very large territory better than having two cities?
I pretty much like the fact that several cities can build a holy site (or wonder?) together, but I also think there should be a cap (or a decrease of the industry gain based on number of cities working on the same wonder and/or the distance to the building site?)
I am not convinced by the “healing with money” feature, it takes away some unit management if you can just heal them with a handful of coins…
The effect of terrain in battles is a nice idea, but it is not enough as it stands, I would like higher boni/mali from higher/unfavourable ground. Historic battles have been won/lost mainly due to terrain (at least this is what Hannibal Barca told me once)
Similarly, veterancy, wounds and placement (nearby troops, flanking, maybe morale for archer having ennemy cavalry adjacent) should play a more important role in battles
Attacking cities is too easy, I rarely did a siege, and it was just to try it out and see the siege engines at work
Problems
I had one crash (frozen screen, not possible to click anywhere, I had to kill the process), no clue how/why it happened. Edit: two
I kinda forgot an ongoing siege… ^^ once started it didn't prompt (like idle armies would) so I forgot about it
Couldn’t find a ruin to clean with the “clean ruin” building option. No tile was highlighted and the description just stated the obvious "clean a ruin".
The loading screen indicates Current era = neolithics, even in later game (I guess it is not yet implemented). Some relevant waiting time info would be great (scientific progress, # units destroyed/lost, # cities founded/captured, personnalised waiting screens per civ…)
Two civilizations were “the first to discover…”
I have not been prompted by idle outposts (I know it’s my fault, but hey… ;-D)
City growth is not clear, I get confused by notifications that “this city is not growing”, while it seems it is… (again, might be my fault, noob inside)
Also, some tile output details are misleading, or incomplete (where is my food bonus?)
Sometimes info pop-ups hide behind windows and you have to scroll all the way to the spot in order to close it.
I miss an info on who’s territory it is while mouseovering tiles
The three config buttons (show/hide tiles, grid & district focus) are not saved and you have to tick them on at each game load.
I was stuck with the “end turn” button waiting for me to do something in the religion screen, although there was nothing to be done. It took me about 5 minutes to finally have the “end turn” button, don’t know how I did that, just clicking around...
What requires my attention here?
My savegame was lost due to too many autosaves, this is dangerous if playing multiple games in parallel. Also, I like to keep old savegames, call me sentimental...
I can’t really see the effect of my lumber yard... I may have missed simething, but then again, it is useful feedback that I missed it
I have clicked to attack a city with an army several turns away. The battle began automatically by clicking on the "move troops as they are ordered to", but I could not find an easy way to center on the battle and had to scroll all over the place to find it.
Desideratas
I can “buy” luxuries from the AI but not sell them some... it would be nice to be able to bargain treaties/peace/techs? with luxuries or strategic metals
We should be able to “hide” somehow given buildings in given cities, as over the ages the building list gets spammed with infrastructures you don’t really want/need in that particular city (harbours, river stuff...).
Please don’t forget to insert a multiplayer mode in server where anyone can take turns as they see fit, instead of needing to be all connected at the same time.
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