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In Humankind, there is (sadly) only war

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3 years ago
Jun 20, 2021, 6:00:43 PM

According to the (surprisingly large) marketing campaign of the game, we as a player can rewrite the History of Humankind. That’s awesome, on paper at least. Because sadly the only stories that we can tell in this game are War Stories. It seems that all the development budget of this 4X went to “eXterminate”, and it shows: tactical combats are very good and nice to watch, terrain has a major importance and there is a huge amount of common and unique units. However, all the other aspects of the game feel barebone and are only there to support war efforts.


Please correct me if I’m wrong, but apart from War there is no other way to dominate the other Empires. I’m not talking about the Fame system, which is in my opinion not very engaging, but rather actual gameplay mechanics that would allow you to actually roleplay something else than a Warlord. I’m talking about gameplay mechanics that let you leverage economic, cultural, scientific and religious power to dominate the world “peacefully”.


Some frustrating examples:

- We cannot customize deals or use influence to force treaties or even exchange technologies/ressources/stuff.

- Trading is painfully basic, and no long lasting and strong economic relationships can be built over time.

- Science only serves to unlock new units and buildings (aka FIMS boosters) to help us build armies faster.

- Civics offer very few interesting cultural choices, and in the end it only affects FIMS and thus our capacity to wage War.

- Religion only gives passive bonuses oriented towards more FIMS or stability.

- Faith and Sphere of Influence do not allow to peacefully “convert” cities.

- No denunciations or impact of our behavior on how other Empires see us.

 

In the absence of all these mechanics, yet offered by ES2 or CivVI at launch for example, nothing emphasize/reward/allow pacifist gameplay. Worse still, nothing prevents Empires to declare War all the time in order to dominate the world.


Building upon Endless Legend, Humankind proposes some interesting innovations regarding Civilizations and War. I would have loved real innovations for Research, Politics and Diplomacy to shake these old 4X standards that feel very flat in our modern gaming era.

Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Jun 20, 2021, 7:13:26 PM

I felt this too the more I played - when at peace, I'd quickly skip through turns since my cities would just be building their queue. Events and civic unlocks do break up the monotony once in a while, but they don't really provide substantial peacetime gameplay.

This might just be a matter of misaligned expectations; if we were expecting a great wargame, then we got one, and no complaints here. If we're aiming for a more well-rounded game, however, then I agree with the examples above. As long as post-release updates flesh out the other systems, then the game will eventually grow into one that narrates all aspects of humankind, not just war.

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3 years ago
Jun 21, 2021, 12:44:25 AM

It feels like the game is really unpolished and unfinished, I know it's a beta, but it's nowhere near ready for release in this state.


I agree with all that is said in the thread. Diplomacy and trade are not developed enough, and there aren't enough checks and balances in place to stop warlords. The geopolitics are non-existent. 


"Trade" is nothing more than buying a contract to get whatever you need, there's no engagement in there, and no granularity. 


Vassals are also poorly executed, as you can barely interact with them, and you can't even build their infrastructures to exploit strategic resources of your vassals. Which is completely ridiculous. 


The way religion/influence spread isn't really explained well and it's hard to understand.

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3 years ago
Jun 21, 2021, 3:38:54 AM

In my opinion tactical fights fall a bit flat compared to games like Age of Wonders or even it's own pre-decessor Endless Legends. There need to be more diverse units traits and maybe even some unit skills. Currently everything goes over some minor modifiers on a single stat "combat strength".


I did one normal game where I did a bit of everything and game purely defensive building a single mega city. The last game was considerable shorter as there was nothing to do apart from queuing up a whole bunch of buildings and pressing "end turn". So I would agree that there are currently very few choices for playing a peaceful game.

Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Jun 21, 2021, 10:52:01 AM
QuantumBacon wrote:

This might just be a matter of misaligned expectations; if we were expecting a great wargame, then we got one, and no complaints here. If we're aiming for a more well-rounded game, however, then I agree with the examples above. As long as post-release updates flesh out the other systems, then the game will eventually grow into one that narrates all aspects of humankind, not just war.

Yes unfortunately I was expecting a solid 4X game, but now definitely for me Humankind is a wargame with 4X elements.

However, even in this case it's hard to consider it as a good wargame because of poorly design stuff like indeed vassalage: you can become a liege by just defending in your territory, having a cheating AI (i.e. above Nation difficulty) as vassal gives you a ridiculous amount of gold per turn and you cannot interact with the vassal in anyway.


I have no hope that things will improve between now and the release. We'll be lucky if Amplitude manage to improve the balance and pacing of the game, but I would not expect anything related to pacifist gameplay until the first expansion. 

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3 years ago
Jun 21, 2021, 11:19:02 AM

Part of this is how the game rewards the player.  Fame through era stars is the main way you "win" the game.  What's the best way to get era stars?  CONQUEST!  4 of the era stars (Population, Military Units Killed, Territories, and Districts) all benefit from expansion via conquest.  Why build your own districts and grow your own population when you can just take somebody else's?


This could be alleviated by having these era stars be rewritten in such a way that they only reward your own progress.  Obviously the military units killed should stay as a thing you gain from progress.  However, Population could be '# of population increases in your cities' instead of 'total current population'.  Likewise, the districts could be 'amount of industry spent on building districts' instead of 'total number of current districts'.  Territories could be more about cultural influence than simply 'what is attached to your cities' but in order for this to happen they'd need to significantly improve and expand the player interactions with the current mostly passive cultural influence system (it seems like it's only value right now is to provide you with a casus beli).

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3 years ago
Jun 21, 2021, 5:59:58 PM

Yes, i also felt like that, especially when i play on Civilization or Humankind difficulty. If you don`t focus on war and units all game you have 0 chance to win (in Humankind difficulty in closed beta compared to Victor and Lucy even with war you can`t win). Basically everything else does not matter and if you don`t go war you die. I was hoping for options to win on hard and very hard by other means other than war. 


Also i`m so scared for August release as the Open Beta compared to Victor and Lucy introduced game crashes to windows, save games don`t load and a lot of other bugs. I was hoping it would get better than Victor and it did in some aspects but in those basic ones it got worse. Also you can`t see what cities build (and the highlighted colored districts to easily distinguish them) from zoom out view, although you could see these stuff in Victor OpenDev. 


It seems Humankind is a downgraded Endless Legend without unique races/traits/skills (just 1 unit is different per Civ by skin and description but in play is mostly the same, far away from the plethora of skills and uniqueness of EL) , with neutrals that are also downgraded from Endless Legend with no bonuses and stuff to assimilate, weird pace tech is behind, when on peace there is just building to do that never gets done and no peace time stuff to do just end turn mostly, no cool quests, no incentive to use boats like in EL, no weather/seasons system, you can`t play like in EL from zoom out view as not all the info is available and you have to keep zooming in, city filters are not remembered and you have to keep filter items again and again, no pin/color code system to plan for future district placement and get best bonuses from them, BUT it has great music, great graphics and a cool idea. Hope it gets worked on and it is launched after is ready and not in august. I hope it`s not the first fail of Amplitude as i love their games. Please make this game as good as the others

Updated 2 years ago.
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3 years ago
Jun 21, 2021, 7:03:09 PM

I do agree that, from this closed beta, the means for a player to use their political soft power to effect other players and empires on the map is lacking.


In victor, influence was a passive way to enforce stability problems to any other player that has fallen behind in influence generation, and is stubborn to switch their ideologies to better fit the influential player. However: Civic Osmosis events feel limited in the grand scheme of things, once the map fills up.


The other form of political soft power we have in this beta: Is trade. However, there's little means for players to coordinate with competitive a.i to enforce tariffs and such on problem empires. Though I will say that trade dependency forcing a massive stability malus when going to war against an empire you are buying many luxuries from is a pretty neat consequence.

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3 years ago
Jun 23, 2021, 10:18:23 AM

Vassals should not give merchant stars. Conquest of cities should not give builder and agarian stars. Right now warfare is very powerful, building units make your cities grow faster since units don't eat food and reducing population in cities mean faster growth as farmers can't keep up with food consumption, thus you gain agarian stars quicker by spamming military which you can use to conquer cities and get all kinds of era stars and simply snowball far ahead everyone else.


Some suggestions:

  • Give combat bonuses to the defender/penalties to the aggressor in the war, more in a surprise war.
  • Make it cost influence to declare war and annex cities.
  • Agarian stars should only count pops grow in your own cities and maybe not count military units, builder stars should only count districts built under your rule.
  • Vassals should not give progress to merchant stars.
  • Add a coalition system or something to counter huge powerful warmongers.
Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Jun 26, 2021, 12:24:01 PM
Changlini wrote:

I do agree that, from this closed beta, the means for a player to use their political soft power to effect other players and empires on the map is lacking.


In victor, influence was a passive way to enforce stability problems to any other player that has fallen behind in influence generation, and is stubborn to switch their ideologies to better fit the influential player. However: Civic Osmosis events feel limited in the grand scheme of things, once the map fills up.


The other form of political soft power we have in this beta: Is trade. However, there's little means for players to coordinate with competitive a.i to enforce tariffs and such on problem empires. Though I will say that trade dependency forcing a massive stability malus when going to war against an empire you are buying many luxuries from is a pretty neat consequence.

I don't know, as you say this is very limited. I think the stability penalty for being influenced by another player should be bigger, and there should be a real risk of the terriory revolting and instead of spawning Independent People's, switching to your oponent's side altogether.

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