Slashman wrote:

No doubt it is not the all encompassing scenario, but that is the kind of argument that Denuvo will bring to publishers.

Yeah, I agree and that's my point exactly.  Even the "strongest" arguments that DRM devs pitch in favor of their product are rather weak and definitely do not justify making the experience worse for those who actually paid for the game.

Why is Denuvor bad? From what I could gather at most it was a minor inconvenience, a lot of games have them and I don't think it can ruin a whole game, also they probably could just remove it after release, and by the way, it's most likely to release next year.

Waoling wrote:

Why is Denuvor bad? From what I could gather at most it was a minor inconvenience, a lot of games have them and I don't think it can ruin a whole game, also they probably could just remove it after release, and by the way, it's most likely to release next year.

...Did you read the whole thread? People go into great detail on the negative aspects of Denuvo.

I'm unhappy with Denuvo too, for what it may be worth in a crowded conversation.

Hello Everyone, 

I’m Astamarr, the developer responsible for the task of integrating Denuvo DRM to ENDLESS Dungeon. I'll try to answer your concerns about the Denuvo DRM, and what it means to install a game that contains it. 

Let me say that I'm first and foremost a player, just like you. I've faced numerous disastrous DRMs implementations during the years, and i know that it can cause a great deal of frustration. With that in mind, I'll try to be as clear and honest as possible in the following statement. 

 
1) First of all, it's important to make a distinction between Denuvo anti-cheat and Denuvo DRM. 

Denuvo Anti-Cheat is a software installed on your computer. Every anti-cheat on the market operates like this. They're basically just like antiviruses, scanning your computer hardware and software and doing... stuff to ensure that you're playing fairly.
TED doesn't require this anti-cheat system, or any other one. No third-party software will be installed on your computer.

 
What we're using in the game is the Denuvo "DRM" solution. It's just some verifications made within the game code. These are basically the same (but more protected) checks that games makes when installed with Steam/Epic/Your favorite store to ensure you did indeed buy the game. 

Please note that this doesn't require you to be online at all times, or even for the Denuvo server to be online. Once this check is made, you'll be able to play offline.

 
2) The second main concern about these DRMs are performances issues. Theses checks can indeed have a great impact on performance. It's pretty easy to understand: if the checks are triggered every time the player makes a basic action (like, for example, moving the character), it'll spam requests non-stop and it'll be disastrous.
On the other hand, if we barely do any checks at all, it'll be pretty easy for hackers to crack the DRM and the whole process will be worthless. 

Of course, there is a balance to find here: more checks means a more secure game, but a greater impact on performance. 

At Amplitude, we're doing everything necessary to find the perfect balance to have a decently protected game, and to intelligently place requests so that they do not impact performance. This requires time, which is why we are already tackling it now. 

We have efficient tools to monitor performance closely, and we will put every effort until release (and after if needed!) to ensure that. Regardless of how things change in the market we will always make sure that our players have access to the game that they have bought. 

To summarize, let's say this: we will try our best to avoid that the game gets hacked at release -- because we put a lot of hard work into our games, and we do have bills to pay. We will never compromise on the quality of game, the experience, and the privacy of our players for it. 

SpikedWallMan wrote:

Oh, don't worry, it will definitely be hacked [...] but the whole DRM issue only hurts those who paid for the game.

I'm just a simple developper here, so I can't answer (nor necessary understand) about the business side of these decisions. From my perspective, it's just a fact we have to deal with, and i'm trying to express that our teams will do the best to compose with it.

SpikedWallMan wrote: Really?  It doesn't require the Denuvo server to be online...ever?  So if Denuvo went bankrupt and shut down all of their servers today, then I could expect to install the DRM'd build of Endless Dungeon, say, 5 years from now?

It's a good question and my statement was clearly incomplete. Just like Steam or any others DRMs, when your game get checked, you basically get a ticket to use the game for a period of time, even offline. Eventually this ticket will expire after a while and you'll have to log-in again to refresh it. Same goes with every update of the game.

SpikedWallMan wrote: So if Denuvo went bankrupt and shut down all of their servers today, then I could expect to install the DRM'd build of Endless Dungeon, say, 5 years from now?

 No, you wouldn't be able to install the old DRM build. At least not hacked ;)

 I understand your concerns as I know some "old" games are now unplayable because of these issues (i'm still salty about my Spore copy). Of course, i really want to tell you that no matter what we will always support our game until the end of times, but the world is too much of a weird place to promise it. 

I can only tell you this : we are technically thinking and planning about these concerns, and we already made sure that if we do need to remove any DRM from our games, it'll be a really quick and easy update for us to make.

Astamarr wrote:

SpikedWallMan wrote: Really?  It doesn't require the Denuvo server to be online...ever?  So if Denuvo went bankrupt and shut down all of their servers today, then I could expect to install the DRM'd build of Endless Dungeon, say, 5 years from now?

It's a good question and my statement was clearly incomplete. Just like Steam or any others DRMs, when your game get checked, you basically get a ticket to use the game for a period of time, even offline. Eventually this ticket will expire after a while and you'll have to log-in again to refresh it. Same goes with every update of the game.

I dont understand, why does the game need to be checked in order to play offline, and why would people have to login in just to continue playing offline? aren't Log ins usually related to online activity?

Because otherwise once anyone had a copy of the game working, there would be nothing stopping everyone from sending that copy to each other. You need to check with on online server to make sure that everyone has a different copy than each other. Back in the old days you could just burn the CD a game came on and give it to your friends. This is the first most basic step towards stopping pirates.

Yes, not a true offline experience. But if you have spotty Internet, or even just use your phone as a hotspot every now and then you'll be fine.

There will be no monthly subscription which is a pretty big difference, and since you have enough internet to come here to the forums I expect you will have no trouble playing your game.

Eulogos wrote:

There will be no monthly subscription which is a pretty big difference, and since you have enough internet to come here to the forums I expect you will have no trouble playing your game.

I know, but the way its described heavily implies some form of time limited use, and while people like you and me may not have a problem with the internet, there will be others who will buy the game but not be as fortunate with their online connectivety.

Astamarr wrote:

SpikedWallMan wrote:

Oh, don't worry, it will definitely be hacked [...] but the whole DRM issue only hurts those who paid for the game.

I'm just a simple developper here, so I can't answer (nor necessary understand) about the business side of these decisions. From my perspective, it's just a fact we have to deal with, and i'm trying to express that our teams will do the best to compose with it.

There is no way to prove that DRM has a positive effect because there is no way to prove that the people who pirated would have bought the game otherwise.  On the other hand, I user who is locked out of a game they purchased can definitely prove they DRM has a negative effect.  Businesspeople and DRM devs can tell as many scary stories about evil pirates as they want, but all they can back those claims up with is speculation.  Instead, I think it's better for a dev to ignore the pirates and instead intensely focus on fostering a community who sees the value in spending their money on a game.

Astamarr wrote:

SpikedWallMan wrote: Really?  It doesn't require the Denuvo server to be online...ever?  So if Denuvo went bankrupt and shut down all of their servers today, then I could expect to install the DRM'd build of Endless Dungeon, say, 5 years from now?

It's a good question and my statement was clearly incomplete. Just like Steam or any others DRMs, when your game get checked, you basically get a ticket to use the game for a period of time, even offline. Eventually this ticket will expire after a while and you'll have to log-in again to refresh it. Same goes with every update of the game.

OK.  Thanks for the clarification - that's what I thought.  So my point still stands that the DRM'd version of the game is just one dead server farm away from being a "digital brick" as it were for the people who paid for it.  (My condolences regarding your dead Spore disc BTW.  For the record, if it wasn't for the SecuROM DRM on the disc then that game would run perfectly fine.)

Astamarr wrote:
At least not hacked ;)

And therein lies one of the larger problems that I have with DRM.  If DRM goes defunct, then the only option is to send paying customers to really shady piracy websites to download sketchy cracks that may or may not contain malware.  So the devs are pushing their legit customers to perform risky actions just to maintain status quo for the game that they purchased.  And then at that point you have to consider that the paying customers are now performing the exact same set of actions as pirates (e.g. looking for cracked downloads, applying hacks, wading through sketchy sites, etc.) so the only difference between the customer and the pirate at this point is that the customer was "dumb" enough to pay for the piracy experience.

I appreciate your comments here and also appreciate that you are trying to make the best of a bad situation.  I realize that you didn't make the decision to put Denuvo in this game.  However, I wish that the decision-makers that want the DRM in this game would read through these Denuvo topics and consider the opinions here.