Astamarr wrote:

SpikedWallMan wrote:

 If DRM goes defunct, then the only option is to send paying customers to really shady piracy websites to download sketchy cracks that may or may not contain malware.  

The obvious thing to do in this case would be to change or remove the DRM with an update of the game. That's one of the beauty of digital distribution: releasing the game with Denuvo doesn't mean we have to use it forever. 

You have my genuine thanks for adressing the top concern in these forums. From what I understand, this is not your decision to make though. History shows that most publishers do not care about game preservation and won't care about removing the DRM. There's even an argument to be made that this isn't in their best interests, but more on that later.

Only a handful of games removed or replaced the Gamespy requirement, just as only a handful of games removed SecuROM. Why would Denuvo be any different? History shows that most of the stubborn publishers still using that middleware will simply forget their games even exist and sell you a new version again in a few years when that one stopped functioning.
https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/SecuROM
https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/GameSpy 

In the meantime, in return for the resources and time the developer - you - has to waste on its implementation, you get unplayable games, performance issues and incompatibilities and it's your customers which have to deal with the consequences, making Denuvo counter-productive.

Since a video is worth a thousand words, you can see it happening right here:Can't play MH:Rise because of DRM (live in front of 60k viewers)

Do you think the streamer, or any of their viewers will buy another game with Denuvo after such a display of contempt for a legitimate customer's experience? When Denuvo servers are down on their side, games without a valid activation token will not start, online or not. A sizable part of the games that had Denuvo removed recently had it during last year's global outage, however some companies such as EA, SEGA, Frontier and Ubisoft DGAF about their users and kept it in showing how unlikely it is they'll remove it later.
People also recently reported that it seems to trigger a 24 hour lockout if you play games on desktop computer and switch to the Steam Deck: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1687950/discussions/0/3489752656786031116/?ctp=2#c3489752656790504351

Another point I have seen made here was that Denuvo checks are similar to Steam checks, which is inaccurate. Contrary to Denuvo, Steamworks and the optional DRM it offers have no built-in expiration timer: Bar human error, a glitch or a publisher implementing their own DRM, you can stay offline indefinitely on Steam and keep enjoying your games for as long as you want even in the unlikely event of Steam's demise. Plus, even though they do not advertise that fact, Steam also sells some DRM-free games something which I might add your main competitor in the turn based strategy genre, Paradox, has been doing with excellent financial results for years.

Steamworks offers a plethora of services in exchange for the digital-only model which is why it's tolerated, even appreciated by most customers while Denuvo does not give anything back for the occasional inconvenience it represents.  

Final point, there's a non negligible consideration that some fraction of the industry is using Denuvo as a way to artificially add planned obsolescence to their games, which is all the more deplorable that building a product to fail is an actual engineering design consideration injected by marketing and not a conspiracy theory. When producers of durable goods must compete with previous generations of their own products, firms can engage in planned obsolescence to limit the scope of this competition. This tends to be confirmed by publishers keeping Denuvo in their games when it has been available to pirates for years making the customer the only likely target of the middleware.

Ubisoft, for instance, recently tried to effectively remove games from their customer's library before quickly walking it back as a "misunderstanding" when put in front of a quickly rising backlash. Meanwhile SEGA kept Denuvo on several games for which they (mistakenly?) released the Denuvo-free executable themselves, meaning there's factually zero piracy prevented while they seemingly still pay for the middleware's recurrent fees.

All this, for something that has never proven it even has an effect on sales. Only around 25 games used Denuvo Anti Tamper last year after five years on a downward trend for its adoption rate, let that sink in for a moment.. Wouldn't every company use it if it had any indication that it worked? Piracy is mostly driven by ideological, systemic or socio-economic factors which can't be converted into sales by DRM, no matter how strong it is. In the end, most publishers don't put the burden of that belief on the shoulders of their customers, except for a few deluded executives of a handful of companies known for a long history of anti-consumer business practices.

As a conclusion, what gamers like you and me actually care about is the quality of their games... Denuvo isn't free and doesn't affect pirates who will just play one of the other 10394 games Steam released last year - that's the actual number - I own all your games and DLC, they are all the product of incredibly talented artists so why suddenly treating your loyal customers like thieves? Why not focus the wasted development time and resources towards something that will actually improve the value of the game instead? Why not take the time to develop a healthy relationship with your customers and give pirates incentives to buy instead of trying to force them to? Quality, affordability and availability are way better levers against piracy than any technological means of protection will ever be. 

We don't need to be explained what Denuvo is, the company itself made sure any gamer worth their salt knows already by making the news on the regular with various controversies... what we actually need is devs to join pushback internally against an out of touch decision that will hurt all of us, gamers and developers alike while the middleware purveyor line their pockets with your hard earned revenue. This is far from everything I have to say about Denuvo but I think you got my point already and probably got fed up with me so... I hope you'll consider the unambiguously massive negative feedback the news sparked and in any event, good luck for the release.

lukaself wrote:

Another point I have seen made here was that Denuvo checks are similar to Steam checks, which is inaccurate. Contrary to Denuvo, Steamworks and the optional DRM it offers have no built-in expiration timer: Bar human error, a glitch or a publisher implementing their own DRM, you can stay offline indefinitely on Steam and keep enjoying your games for as long as you want even in the unlikely event of Steam's demise. Plus, even though they do not advertise that fact, Steam also sells some DRM-free games something which I might add your main competitor in the turn based strategy genre, Paradox, has been doing with excellent financial results for years.

Exactly, Games with Denuvo are permamently made Online only, even if you could play offline, you would still have go Online every now and then just to get the check to continue playing offline, and if you dont have internet or the servers get screwed up, thats it, no more Endless Dungeon, all that money and time spent on ED, down the drain. As said by SpikeWallMan before, this game is one step away from becoming a digital brick just by having Denuvo.

Was really looking forward to this game but if its got Denuvo I won't be buying it until it is removed, that will be the release date for me.

If you want to incentivize people to buy your game and not pirate it, you can spend the 100000$ you gave to that trash company Denuvo on designing better multiplayer features, fostering a multiplayer community through discord, and also by making quality Steam frills like achievements, HQ animated backgrounds, avatars and frames.

Same reason I won't buy Sonic Frontiers @SEGA.

Its a shame I have to take this stance against a developer who I have great love and respect for.

Just gonna leave these here since they're relevant to current discourse but are always forgotten because they run counter to the "DRM protects sales" narrative:

EU study suppressed for concluding piracy does not affect sales:

https://www.engadget.com/2017-09-22-eu-suppressed-study-piracy-no-sales-impact.html

Study shows removal of DRM boosted music sales:

https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/drm-was-a-bad-move-sales-found-to-increase-10-after-5812288/

I mentioned it in a previous Denuvo thread, but I still have my partner who doesn't wish to purchase the game anymore due to the Denuvo DRM implementation and it's heartbreaking since I was really looking forward to entering the space station with them.

I know not much can be done from the developer side, but I'm saying it anyways because this is a really important cause. If not for the people who are already getting the game with concerns, then for those who won't be joining us in the Endless Dungeon because of it:

Please remove Denuvo.