Think_Blindly wrote:
Not sure if this idea has been brought up yet-



To negate the weakness of maps with less water, they should have a trait that makes the land regions they settle sink and flood over. Not enough to prevent land units from entering. Like waist high water. Giving birth to the perfect defense/growth/expansion faction.



Ttaits- Great flood. Colonised regions are flooded in water. Slight change to fidsi in region. (-1 dust +1food?) Enemy units slowed by the water, own units faster.



Resources unaffected. Use bubble as extractor like protection from the water.

I gave the Typhons the ability to convert land tiles into lakes and ocean tiles in a previous comment. It is an active ability like magic, but based on .



I think your idea is interesting, but I could not apply it earlier for 2 reasons:

1- The Naga in Warlock 2 already have the ability to flood the land with water every time they build a city. So I thought we could try something unique and different instead.

2- The regions in Endless Legend are limited in number, especially in small maps. So if we convert land region into water completely, it would break the game! cuz it will severely limit the expansion of Land factions.

However, your idea is still interesting and it all depends on the balancing aspect. So I really need to hear from the devs about this first.

KrimsonVagus wrote:
I look forward to that. I actually don't mind if many other people make suggestions for water factions. As long as water factions get voted and added to the game, that's all I want

If it's anything like what happened with the cultists, you'll be like Nosferatiel, the originator and creator with attached credit, and everyone else will be the community contributors. I am very curious to see how they implement this. I like what Ino'CO did with the Nagas in Warlock 2. Though, in the base game, there already a lot of aquatic resources, and aquatic combat. So we'll see.

I've been looking around the oceans lately, and I noticed that there are actual Coral Reef tiles if you look carefully at the tile descriptions in some areas of the Ocean.

I think this is a hint that at some point in the future, there will be actual major factions in the ocean, assuming that the coral reefs will give production (just like forests on land)



If that is how the devs want it, then it looks like a lot of changes will be made for this thread.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that major aquatic factions will be announced at some point in the future... and hopefully this thread will give some inspiration for everyone involved

Ah the Naga, loved them in WoW.



I'd be down for a Naga minor faction, we need more action in the oceans anyway.

As far as things go, one of the best ways you could balance water based factions is by allowing both land and water based factions the ability to settle in each other's environments. It could be a mid to late game tech, but something that allowed factions to build profitable cities would be great. You could balance it out as stated before, with some large negative bonuses, but these cities should still be profitable for both land and water based factions. Perhaps, you could have an early technology that allows each faction respectively to found cities in the other's environment. These first cities should have high penalties. Then you could improve whatever technology that allows them to live in either land or water environments, and slowly lower the penalties and raise the benefits you could gain from these cities through the eras.

I love the Naga Faction Idea! Maybe a Crab-Kraken Hybrid as third (big) Unit? Uniting land movement and a threatening giant water creature!



Release the Crabaken!

One can dream...

Mansen wrote:


Not to mention the lack of aquatic combat - Maybe this is something best kept for an expansion that adds naval aspects to the game (maybe an undersea floor elevation level with submerged ruins and resources for all to find and fight over?)

That's correct. Indeed, if you look closely at the ocean floor and its tile description, sometimes you will see "Coral Reef" tiles.



I think that is a hint from the developers that water tiles will become more significant in the future. Otherwise, why would there be Coral Reef if no one is gonna use it? Why would their be variety of ocean tiles at all? It can be argued that this was made for aesthetic purposes... but really the coral reefs are barely visible to us.

So maybe they will become the "forests" of the Ocean in future expansions...?



I'm even looking forward to ocean anomalies/elevations and stuff like that



But I don't want to be a rumormonger, just being optimistic

I really like the idea of an aquatic faction - but as mentioned they will be hard to balance because of ocean tile FIDSI as well as the issue with conquest (of their cities as well as of land based cities)



Not to mention the lack of aquatic combat - Maybe this is something best kept for an expansion that adds naval aspects to the game (maybe an undersea floor elevation level with submerged ruins and resources for all to find and fight over?)

jamoecw wrote:


as we can see if they can have land cities then they can have nearly the same coverage in an equally skilled matchup, on a map that heavily penalizes the nagas. now add in the extra growth for larger more powerful cities so they need less land and they are a bit OP. of course if the nagas and the land empires forget about each other until the 3 land factions consolidate to 1, then the nagas are at a disadvantage (assuming they weren't given all land they could colonize), assuming again that both are going for a conquest type victory and striving to wipe each other off the map.



having a single water faction gives a huge bonus to that faction as shown, having a second water faction could help make things less about water coverage/where cities can be built. if there were 2 or three water factions available and the nagas were a choice being able to colonize land would be fine.

Good point. But keep in mind that in single player, you can have multiple Naga AI players on the same map. So even if the devs made only 1 or 2 aquatic factions, they can still be selected multiple times possibly causing competition between them. It is possible for them to add an algorithm that accounts for the spaces available for water factions when starting a game with "random factions". It means that if you start a "random" game, you might get multiple Nagas depending on how much Ocean there is in the game. I'd say 30% water is about enough for 2 of them.



Also, in the current trait roster, the Naga can't keep cities that are not next to Coast/Ocean OR are not built on "wet" tiles (river, ice, wetland, Oasis). So it evens out a little bit. It means BOTH sides (land vs aquatic faction) will have a hard time keeping each other's cities.



Overall, though, you're right. The aquatic side has slightly more reason to go to war against land side. So, we could add some deterrents as mentioned above like:

1- Aquatic faction gets happiness penalty from cities built on land

2- Aquatic soldiers get Attack/Defense/stats penalty when fighting on land.

Both of these handicaps can (or not) be reduced or fixed with research technologies.



This should balance things out...

if naga can have land cities, but others can't have the naga ocean cities, then only the naga have something to gain by going to war.



let's say pangea map with 10% ocean only regions, 15% coasts, 25% regions with watery land. 4 players.

total potential map coverage of nagas - 50%

total potential map coverage for other 3 - 90%

non contested regions for naga - 10%

non contested regions for other 3 - 0%

contestable regions for naga - 40%

contestable regions for other 3 - 90%

divide contestable regions among contestable factions for naga - 10%

divide contestable regions among contestable factions for other 3 - 26.7% (40% among 4, 50% among 3)

divide contestable regions among contestable factions and add uncontested for naga - 20% (10% contested, 10% uncontested)

divide contestable regions among contestable factions and add uncontested for other 3 - 26.7%



as we can see if they can have land cities then they can have nearly the same coverage in an equally skilled matchup, on a map that heavily penalizes the nagas. now add in the extra growth for larger more powerful cities so they need less land and they are a bit OP. of course if the nagas and the land empires forget about each other until the 3 land factions consolidate to 1, then the nagas are at a disadvantage (assuming they weren't given all land they could colonize), assuming again that both are going for a conquest type victory and striving to wipe each other off the map.



having a single water faction gives a huge bonus to that faction as shown, having a second water faction could help make things less about water coverage/where cities can be built. if there were 2 or three water factions available and the nagas were a choice being able to colonize land would be fine.

Who knows what will happen, but would a new faction competition for some future addon/expansion be a good thing?

I like it. When I said an aquatic faction, I didn't mean this aquatic.. but they'll work just fine. Great job.

“Reef Melding”

Why not have a modifier under that trait that just gives production on Reef or Frozen Water tiles? You know, the tiles around Coasts that has. oh wait, was that in Age of Wonders 3 or? lol, i may be confused here.

jamoecw wrote:
i wouldn't start them with the technologies. dust might be like lead here on earth, it only exists in shallow water because it is only recently disturbed. i'd invert the ship technology, they can't go on land at first and must research it (instead of researching sea travel).

I just thought it might be an interesting and somewhat obvious start, Aquapulvistics being the only water-related technology in Era 1. I suppose balancing will have the last word in this...

As for Dust, I'm pretty sure it behaves somewhat less predictably in extreme conditions. In fact in the crushing depths of the ocean, new types of super-dense dust might be discovered. When the Naga are added, just make deep Ocean tiles provide 1 Food and 1 Dust by default (then another +1 food due to faction trait. Total +2). So they're gonna have an average amount of Dust to start with by default... Besides, even though the Naga are a somewhat young race, ocean Dust would have been disturbed by them as they sense its presence.

As for Shipyard technology, you make a good point. I agree.

Instead of Shipyard, in Era 2 they get a tech called "Moisture Trapping", which allows them to travel on land with moisture trapping devices that keep their gills from drying out. They get a 25% handicap to attack and/or defense when fighting on land, and they can only regenerate health on Wet tiles. These handicaps can be fixed by another technology maybe?

jamoecw wrote:
i'd also have them build their city squares in lake or ocean tiles only, that way they don't end up with more potential cities than the others (the others also have to compete for this land with each other, the nagas don't compete for water only areas). this way coastal areas are big hot spots for conflict, and wars involve expeditionary forces on both sides of the conflict. it would also help bring an 'out of the sea' type of feeling to this faction (like many fantasy and sci fi scenarios of an alien army invading the land from the shadowy depths).

Ultimately, all of those Industry technologies that other factions get will be replaced with techs that allow the Naga to build districts on Land like everyone else. Another tech would be "Reef Melding" to replace Mill Foundry. It is a building which grants a 1or 1.5% buying discount with Dust per population... Most of their replacement techs will be based around allowing them to colonize land more equally with other factions and granting them improvement effects based on population level (cuz they are all about Growth and high pop.). Remember, most of their stuff will be bought with Dust instead of Industry...

Another improvement to replace Lumber Mill and Canal Systems would give them +2 or +3 Dust from Anomalies and Ruins. OR +1 food on tiles with food.

In Era 3, they can finally research the tech that allows them to build districts on non-wet land tiles

(Some of these new techs can be acquired from faction quests maybe?)



As for competition, Naga Ocean cities can still be captured by non-Naga but they will be auto-Salt the Earth at 100% ownership as shown in their Affinity Trait description in the OP. The Naga themselves however, if they capture cities NOT built on top of the "wet" tiles (river, ice, wetland, Oasis or near Coast/Ocean) will also be auto-Salted by 100% own.

It means the Naga will constantly have to relocate their captured cities, and they will have some areas completely blocked to them (can't be settled) if they don't have ANY "wet" tiles as mentioned above. Let's just say, the Naga are weakest at Expansion Victory in Pangea maps, even though they have exclusive areas. In other map types, they have a more equal footing (depending on percentage of water in the world).

We can make sure that games with Naga will always have 50% maximum water percentage or LESS, in the Create Game options, just for the balance. It means even in multiplayer, if someone chooses the Naga to play, the game will automatically have a maximum Water percentage of 50% (so the host can only choose 50% or LESS)



And finally, it is possible that Naga Cities built on land will have a huge happiness penalty. Again, it must be compensated with a specific technology in Era 3 or 4. But I can't decide this idea until I get more feedback...

i wouldn't start them with the technologies. dust might be like lead here on earth, it only exists in shallow water because it is only recently disturbed. i'd invert the ship technology, they can't go on land at first and must research it (instead of researching sea travel).



i'd also have them build their city squares in lake or ocean tiles only, that way they don't end up with more potential cities than the others (the others also have to compete for this land with each other, the nagas don't compete for water only areas). this way coastal areas are big hot spots for conflict, and wars involve expeditionary forces on both sides of the conflict. it would also help bring an 'out of the sea' type of feeling to this faction (like many fantasy and sci fi scenarios of an alien army invading the land from the shadowy depths).

avidsupporter333 wrote:
What do you, mighty devs think about these ideas? Will water become more important?



Krimson, I may draw a few sketches, but I'm not exactly a brilliant artist

I can guarantee that anything you draw is probably gonna be 10 times better than mine, hehe



In the meantime, I'll try to whip out some story-writing and unit descriptions etc... depending on the inspiration I get from your sketches



I recommend that the Naga army will start with a default Infantry unit (a male Naga that attacks with a trident or a spear). The 2 other units can be Ranged (a female Naga archer that can use a Long Bow or throw Javelins at the enemy)

and a Flying monster that combines the characteristics of a manta ray and an octopus/squid... or perhaps a flying giant sea serpent with a shark mouth... or anything you like really



The Naga heroes will most likely be Support class (both male and female) and they will have more human-like characteristics than the other more "primitive" Naga units. (Since their brains are more developed than the other Nagas, they can now use basic water magic). These heroes fight with staff, trident or a "regeneration" scepter...)



The primitive Naga units might have frog-like or fierce Catfish-like faces... just a thought. Obviously, the females will look slightly more.. *ahem* sexy!

What do you, mighty devs think about these ideas? Will water become more important?



Krimson, I may draw a few sketches, but I'm not exactly a brilliant artist

You guys are the best!



In order for these to work the last 2 pieces of the puzzle are indeed: water combat AND allowing armies to interact with ruins and Minor faction cities to and from the water position



Now all we need are some ideas for Naga units...

Not to mention sea warfare. +1 on Nagas!!!