Surly harmony is a steam rolling faction?



Lack of approval and dust not withstanding, being able to improve their FIS and shoot for the long game with no upkeep problems while leaving systems utterly devoid of the vital dust required to sustain an invasion should be enough to allow a harmony to slog out a war over 100's of turns relentlessly.

cyrusol wrote:
I've made a little economy test.



Then the cost bug. Then the "oh noes we don't have enough food, all but one pop die" bug, instead of "one pop dies".

In my latest endless game it impacted 3 systems (my home system just as it was about to reach max cap, I thought -5 food is no biggie for a turn). However in one case it went from 34 -> 5 and after 6 turns back from 7 to 34. Still set me back and I wasnt sure if it was a new harmony mechanic(even though it shows pop loss, it didnt show how many) or bug, so continued (I never reload, its cheating) and avoided any -x food after the 3rd time.

Harmony has a strong late game, they say.



Harmony cannot stand AI Serious early, I say. What's the point of having strong uber mega late game If you cannot reach it?

If you lose to them late game, would you not rush them when you have the advantage.

cyrusol wrote:
One question regarding Mineral Memory:

If you do not have the tech (let's say High Energy Magnetics for Anti-Matter), do you still get the resource in your overview?

Do you still get the +1% to FIS with Efficient Stock just by colonizing the planet?

The trait let's you see all strat res regardless of research; but you do not get to tap the resource until you research the tech. Which is why I prioritize strat res research when I can.

deathenergy wrote:
In regards to harmony getting the most out of gas giants.

Industry wise Sowers do: large system of methane giants -> ~5k industry before any hero bonuses or resource wide bonuses (can reach above 9k with heroes and abundance). remember for sowers industry -> food and with tech food surplus -> industry.

Harmony are the best research wise before any hero bonuses.

Would that still be true if you account for the fact that Harmony gets the +% per strat res bonus and the +50% fis bonus for maxed out pop on almost all of their system? I mean you can only have so many heroes. (Haven't played Sower in DH yet, will probably do that next)







Just to clarify, I'm in the "Harmony needs to be tweaked" camp. In fact, I think its late game needs to be nerfed and its early game boosted. I feel like the whole late-game race thing was taken a bit too far with the Harmony.

Antera wrote:


Would that still be true if you account for the fact that Harmony gets the +% per strat res bonus and the +50% fis bonus for maxed out pop on almost all of their system? I mean you can only have so many heroes. (Haven't played Sower in DH yet, will probably do that next)

Sower get:

Assuming 80%+ approval (easy in endgame even endless).

• 20% more industry, system bonus
• 20% more food -> into industry (system bonus+tech)
• 25% more industry (elegant networks)
• 25% more food -> into industry (elegant networks +food -> ind tech)
• 30% of total industry(including above bonuses) -> food -> industry.
• However -50% food bonus from system, considering methane systems dont produce any significant amount in the first place it results in industry adding roughly 1k food and the -50% trait removing 100 or so food)
  
  

Thats without hero bonuses or other resource related bonuses. It might be possible if harmony can get to a food production level that overcomes the above bonuses (slider at 0%) and the same food -> ind tech that maybe harmony can achieve such a feat. However I think it would be better to have jungle/terran systems.



Heres a picture from a 4 methane gas giant system (all between tiny, small and medium)

http://imgur.com/LSdtpO6



Im sure a all jungle harmony system will out do this.

cyrusol wrote:
I've made a little economy test.



My settings are:

Map: Disk-4, Huge, 4 Empires (me and 3 AIs), Normal Age.

Adv Map (left): Weak, Low, Low, Normal, Normal

Adv Map (right): Medium, Many, Remote, Normal

Difficulty: Normal

Speed: Slow(!)

other: no tech exchange, only supremacy and and expansion victory, no pirates



These may be other settings than you all guys play, but I like them. It reminds me of Civ marathon speed or Pax Imperia maps.

You chose to play on setting that would invariably cause massive disparity between two game saves to "test" comparative ability of two faction. Good job doing the worst test possible.

Now, I've made custom factions, this is my Harmony faction:

- Strategically Resourceful

- Crowded Planets 2

- Unlucky Colonists

- Xenobotany

- N-way

- Masters of Illusion 2

- Builders 3

- Diplomats 1



This is a rather average faction I just made for comparison:

Sheredyn:

- Dust Impaired 2

- Sloppy Sawbones 2

- Legendary Heroes 2

- Dust Arch 1

- Optimistic 2

- Masters of Illusion 2

- Eternal War

- Xenobotany

- Feeble Warriors 1

- Businessmen 2

- Metallic Waters

Aside from the obvious (you're comparing a Dust Centric race with 50% buyout cost to a race taht can't buyout), your Sheredyn *also* have a resource multiplier (+20% Dust) that the harmony don't match. That's going to give them a 12% resource lead (assuming even fids distribution which won't happen it could be as much as a 17% lead) over that Harmony faction. You could have at least given the Harmony a Food multiplier.

I couldn't make use of Diplomats 1 right now as I didn't discover enemy planets (round 59!) yet. Also the planets I got for Sheredyn were better. RNG defeat balance anyway...



These are the 2 saves I've come up with now:

Save.zip



The first one is Harmony, after turn 59. The second one is Sheredyn, after turn 45.



Now, you can clearly see my Sheredyn FIDS are double my Harmony FIS.

Your Sheredyn FIDS are not double. They've got an additional +20% F and an additional +40% D production between Businessman and Empire factors that the harmony don't have and are leading by roughly 60%. The non-functional Dust production for the harmony is 172, giving a "real" fids difference of just under 50% for sheredyn over Harmony, and the sheredyn have better FIDS return on their colonized planets.



Oh also... You've chosen to exploit FOOD of all things with the harmony, and have Elemental Reduction going instead of I->S conversion, AND have two systems idling (no building and no conversion). I can't imagine a better way to cripple your science. You've basically done *everything* wrong.

Even if there would be Dust (let's suppose +33% to FIS to be FIDS), Sheredyn produces WAY more then Harmony.

Also expect the Harmony FIS to drop in the next turns.

I am colonizing in waves and right now I would be ready to build a new rack of colony ships and set my tax slider to the right.

Then I would get less Sci than I get Food now.

Next turn is a like 80 point FIS drop. But funny story... You could have TWICE the research speed you have in that save, and if you'd exploited industry you'd have much faster ship production to boot. Which would have put you in a much better colonization state. And you clearly haven't been micro-ing the tax slider.

You also can see that I've explored way more systems in my Sheredyn game. This is due to the fact I can't afford building simple scout ships without losing even more time with harmony.

Also I could build colony ships with 2 colony modules. That would be viable ... if they would cost -50% ind. (Devs, fix this.)

Yes tehy need to fix the colony ship thing. But no you could have explored more. If you had chosen to exploit industry you'd be in a considerably better position.

I think the overoll Harmony weakness also comes from the lack of approval.

Other races do not only have dust, they also have more FIS due to Fervent/Ecstatic.

Then the cost bug. Then the "oh noes we don't have enough food, all but one pop die" bug, instead of "one pop dies".

The harmony can ignore a bunch of research, which should in most cases offset the approval difference.

Hunting for resources is something you can't always do. Even on my Huge 4 players map there are only relatively few resources.



One question regarding Mineral Memory:

If you do not have the tech (let's say High Energy Magnetics for Anti-Matter), do you still get the resource in your overview?

Do you still get the +1% to FIS with Efficient Stock just by colonizing the planet?

No and No. the resource only shows up once you get the research, and you need the research for the bonus.

Do you realize I wrote I am playing in waves? The save was exactly a point of change. Until there I needed growth, then put the slider to the right, then go through all planets and build colo ships. I wrote that. I didn't went over the planets YET. Funny that you ignored that.

Aside from the obvious (you're comparing a Dust Centric race with 50% buyout cost to a race taht can't buyout), your Sheredyn *also* have a resource multiplier (+20% Dust) that the harmony don't match. That's going to give them a 12% resource lead (assuming even fids distribution which won't happen it could be as much as a 17% lead) over that Harmony faction. You could have at least given the Harmony a Food multiplier.

That's the point. You cannot have the output other factions can have. You just can't.

cyrusol wrote:
Do you realize I wrote I am playing in waves? The save was exactly a point of change. Until there I needed growth, then put the slider to the right, then go through all planets and build colo ships. I wrote that. I didn't went over the planets YET. Funny that you ignored that.

And everything I said about exploiting remains correct (not to mention everything I said about relative FIDS). And early game waving is actually pretty bad according to the tests I've done. The plantes you colonize overall don't have high enough Science to make switching the slider that efficient except for the very first wave to go from two planets to 4.



Edit:

That's the point. You cannot have the output other factions can have. You just can't.

You don;t have the important colony techs like Lava or Gas. If you had those you're be equaling FIDS because lower tier planets produce better focused fids and gas produces the most fids.



I'm running a game on similar setting to yours (with perfect balancing not weak, god why would you use weak balancing?) and I'll have applied casimir effect at like turn 17. Let's see how this goes.



Edit 2: And you chose one of the worst comparative matchups. Try comparing them to Amoeba/Pilgrim affinity. And give them equivalent FIDS boni. You stacked the comparison hard.



Edit3: Using base Harmony I managed 900 FIDS turn 60. The game (as usual) threw me a full Arid system as the closest system. 900 FIDS with 6 systems in normal mode (your settings with perfect system balance). My unlisted dust production is 117. Effectively with half your systems I'm producing 3/4 your custom harmony FIDS. Oh and I'm ranked 4th place in FIDS, with half teh galaxy (ish) explored and 5 peace offerings active.

So given the only change being perfect galactic balance (that's it) I played your C.Harmony to turn 49. And here's the comparison between my play and yours.



Stat: Mine/Yours



Current Research Rate: (Slider far left, all planets to I->S) 239/180

FIS: 1320/1210

D: 158/175

Placing (FIDS): 1/1

Placing (SCORE): 1/3

Placing (research): 1/4

Explored Galaxy: ~80%/<50%

Turns: 49/60

Systems: 7/8



And THAT is the difference between exploiting industry and food. The only other change is perfect galactic balance mind you, which has little effect in the first 50 turns or so.



BRB: Going to turn 60



Edit: And now for turn 60!



Current Research Rate: (Slider far left, all planets to I->S) 387

FIS: 1848

D: 271

Placing (FIDS): 2

Placing (SCORE): 2

Placing (research): 1

Explored Galaxy: ~80%

Turn: 60

Systems: 7



Yup, I've managed to brutally destroy your score. By the way, I'm fighting cravers, so that's the reason my FIDS and Score are second.

I like the harmony as is tbh, also I tend to win, but I'd never played on any difficulty above hard (the really really bad tooltips and un-explained game mechanics have been keeping me back. Actually I only got on the forums hoping to read about game mechanics). Their endgame is (IMHO) actually OP, their only endgame disadvantage is the lack of retrofitting and dependency on resource abundance, but if you hit endgame with 5 abundances (purple resources) you are way better than having heroes since the effect is global (I may be wrong, I suppose it really depends on the situation, but generally speaking you are not hindered by the lack of heroes, not THAT much).



However their early game still kinda stinks (no growth while building ships, no approval bonuses, no buyouts). I understand why their shielding is so far up in the technology tree, but I think they should have some more immediate (albeit temporary) solutions. Honestly if they also had tolerant ++ but disharmony would be more drastic. Thus really making them isolationists.



EDIT:



Nor saying this is the only solution, but their early game should not focus on researching colonisation since they already need to focus on other research to remain competitive.

Harmony is, right now based on the SP and MP games I've played, the most powerful faction in the entire game.



Rapid Expansion Phase -> Maintain Expansion, ignore large scale development of colonies outside of primary constellation/group -> Rush Harmonise -> Harmonise all currently held systems -> Raze any unnecessary systems, watch players more in and colonise systems, quickly creating a large dust drain -> Blitz war for opponents primary systems -> One turn invade with troops -> Harmonise -> Raze and retreat.



GG every time. It isn't even easily counterable as all you really need to do is just persist with a small group of systems (or even two-three small holdouts) then blitz invade anywhere the enemy isn't actively garrisoning then hold it for 3 turns. Harmonise doesn't even cost any Industry so its _always_ just 3 turns.

Waylander1982 wrote:
Harmony is, right now based on the SP and MP games I've played, the most powerful faction in the entire game.



Rapid Expansion Phase -> Maintain Expansion, ignore large scale development of colonies outside of primary constellation/group -> Rush Harmonise -> Harmonise all currently held systems -> Raze any unnecessary systems, watch players more in and colonise systems, quickly creating a large dust drain -> Blitz war for opponents primary systems -> One turn invade with troops -> Harmonise -> Raze and retreat.



GG every time.

You'd be better off just holding the systems.

Autocthon wrote:
You'd be better off just holding the systems.

It'd mean sacrificing Sci for Food in order to get those systems up to the point where they can support max Sci production. Already checked, not worth the bother.

You use one T1 Planet and fill the rest with Gas Giants. That's the best return possible and you don't have to sacrifice for food.

You're clearly misinterpreting.



The Harmony affinity allows you to either increase food production or science production, one at the expense of the other, with a massive focus on science production (equating to roughly 47 Science per Pop on an Ocean with the Science Exploit) you can maintain max population due to bare minimum food production however it wouldn't support a population increase on worlds without developed structures for +food etc.

Waylander1982 wrote:
You're clearly misinterpreting.



The Harmony affinity allows you to either increase food production or science production, one at the expense of the other, with a massive focus on science production (equating to roughly 47 Science per Pop on an Ocean with the Science Exploit) you can maintain max population due to bare minimum food production however it wouldn't support a population increase on worlds without developed structures for +food etc.

Nah I just mixed up two thread conversations.



But you'd still be better off holding the systems. You can (and this is the fun bit) build trade routes and go the peaceful route. Building the routes takes a few turns sure, but losing what is equivalent to 10% science (most systems can survive on 80% reduced food) for 10 turns won't kill you. Once you have trade routes up and the tech for them you can turn the food back off.

That presumes that there are enough systems to facilitate any trading. The objective is to deny the enemy dust and to continue to deny it across as broad a spectrum as possible, while allowing the Harmony to maintain their Tech advantage.

Waylander1982 wrote:
Harmony is, right now based on the SP and MP games I've played, the most powerful faction in the entire game.



Rapid Expansion Phase -> Maintain Expansion, ignore large scale development of colonies outside of primary constellation/group -> Rush Harmonise -> Harmonise all currently held systems -> Raze any unnecessary systems, watch players more in and colonise systems, quickly creating a large dust drain -> Blitz war for opponents primary systems -> One turn invade with troops -> Harmonise -> Raze and retreat.



GG every time. It isn't even easily counterable as all you really need to do is just persist with a small group of systems (or even two-three small holdouts) then blitz invade anywhere the enemy isn't actively garrisoning then hold it for 3 turns. Harmonise doesn't even cost any Industry so its _always_ just 3 turns.

Harmony is by far the weakest faction as things stand, and if you're beating people on multiplayer you're up against some really poor players. Your non-expansion strategy is a surefire way to lose, and 'rushing' a very lategame tech like Harmoize is a hopeless idea.

considering that the slider on either position deos not make up the basic disadvtantage the harmony has in terms of FIDS and growth i fail to see how you will keep up with other races.



sheredyn for example can boom like hell, and easier, and earlier and without ever stoping growing.



think about that.