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Harmony faction not as weak as you think

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12 years ago
Jul 11, 2013, 10:26:58 AM
cyrusol wrote:
I really want the stuff you are taking. Where do I have to break in to steal these drugs?

On every game where there is a Harmony AI, no matter the size or speed or other settings, Harmony is the worst of all AIs point-wise, colonizing-wise, fleet-wise, every-wise. Mostly they are stuck at 1/4 to 1/5 of the points of the best AIs.




They don't seem to be in my games, as to why I can't understand! smiley: frown



I wish I could stop these invisible drugs! Then I could stop disagreeing because I love this community!



Do you have a screen shot?
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12 years ago
Jul 11, 2013, 5:20:57 PM
Igncom1 wrote:
Other then also being rude AS WELL you could at least provide a clear indication to what the harmony's problems are even to someone who hasn't played them.



And I only defend the decisions that have the right to be, there are many points that I agree with the community.



I might even agree with you on the harmony position is you can show what you are saying! Even a screen shot would at leas show me what you are talking about! Please.




Listen, or rather read:



This thread has been about harmony, and we players of the harmony faction have been discussing our experiences which very much came down to this:

Harmony is fundamentally flawed and cannot compete. This is the red string through all psots: some get it to work soemtimes, but not consistently. If you have really good starting worlds, even harmony manags, but that is not what consitency is about. Sophon, UE, Sheredyn Hissho, craver and now even sower are consitent (ok sowers are consistently bad but hey... we know that and are already arguing for their sake for felt millenia. I also am part of the buff sower movement im just not avoiding to play a pretty good game in its entirety because i disagree with some stats.)



This whole thread already has answered the questions you consitently REPEAT like some parrot. Harmony are bad because their growth is stunted and their FIDS are horrible.



We also humored you on your questions but at some point it becoems tedious to argue with someone who flat out refuses to do some playtesting himself. I am not arguing contents of a book with someone who has not bothered to read it and i will start gettign anal rententive if the guy keeps bugging me.





You refuse to play harmony, and that is your privilege. But you also sign off on your priviledge of arguing with players who play them.





I am not here to bash the race i want it either fixed so its consistently palyable or LEARN how to play them in case i simply have not grasped a core concept or something.



YOU are not helping. Other people already made interesting trait suggestions and described their gameplay. That is what we are after here. We do not really want to spent time arguing with someone who keeps second guessing our on hands experience - without him having any himself.



This has nothing to do with being polite anymore: you are intruding on a discussion with pointless commentary and second guessing.



Play some games as harmony and describe your experience to us.

Be a part of the discussion.



You did play sowers extensivly to map down their failing points, so why not do the same with harmony? You can be constructive so be constructive. Stop rattling our cages and mine especially.
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12 years ago
Jul 11, 2013, 5:24:53 PM
LordReynolds wrote:
You can be constructive so be constructive. Stop rattling our cages and mine especially.




I for now will withdraw from the discussion.



And I will personally apologise for my behaviour, as little as that may be worth.
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12 years ago
Jul 14, 2013, 12:42:43 PM
Igncom1 wrote:
Not sure if you have read my signature, but I made a promise and I intend to keep it.



Not that I am a good player anyway, but it seems like comparing them to the Sherdyn is done purposefully for you to prove that they are not a strong as a race that gets a huge bonus to dust.



But in my experience the Harmony get far better technology then the other AI's and end up with the largest empire long before anybody else. And that information is what I will continue to base my opinion on.




Just wondering what settings you are playing on ,i.e. dif ,map size ect ?
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12 years ago
Jul 14, 2013, 1:03:27 PM
cyrusol wrote:




Oh and I think the core techs (+50% if full pop, dust barrier) should be available way earlier, but their effectiveness should be reduced.






I sort of agree and disagree ,there should be early techs that do a fair bit less and those techs could be moved up a tier then ,just my thoughts on that subject.
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12 years ago
Jul 14, 2013, 1:20:35 PM
Igncom1 wrote:
Other then also being rude AS WELL you could at least provide a clear indication to what the harmony's problems are even to someone who hasn't played them.



And I only defend the decisions that have the right to be, there are many points that I agree with the community.



I might even agree with you on the harmony position is you can show what you are saying! Even a screen shot would at leas show me what you are talking about! Please.






You have said the AI harmony in your games are way ahead ,could you provide a screen shot of this ? it's not that I don't believe you I just want to see what it looks like as I have never had them live past mid game ,and always in last place
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12 years ago
Jul 14, 2013, 1:33:18 PM




While not really ahead in overall score, the harmony still have better tech then me, and their ships are far superior to mine.



Their empire could easily overrun mine if they fought on more then the southern front.
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12 years ago
Jul 14, 2013, 5:15:04 PM
So this is my takeaway from this thread so far:



1) There is a definite leaning that the harmony is weak, though i'm seeing enough debate that i don't consider it an open and shut case.



2) Regardless of strength, playing the harmony well seems to require a vastly different mindset and playstyle than the other races...so it is certainly not newb friendly.



3) The fact that the harmony only get FIS as a score component is throwing a lot of people off. People use FIDS as a progress indicators and comparison point, and they can't do that with harmony because the FIS indicator is not a good indicator of how well the race is doing. There should be some measure of adjustment to make the harmony FIS meter equivalent to the FIDS.
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12 years ago
Jul 15, 2013, 2:54:24 AM
Stalker0 wrote:




3) The fact that the harmony only get FIS as a score component is throwing a lot of people off. People use FIDS as a progress indicators and comparison point, and they can't do that with harmony because the FIS indicator is not a good indicator of how well the race is doing. There should be some measure of adjustment to make the harmony FIS meter equivalent to the FIDS.




Well the FIS needs to be equal (or at least in a respectable vicinity) of other races FIDS value. The whole reason for lumping FIDS together in one score to begin with is that they're supposed to be roughly equal in value. Therefore if you just cut 25% of a races FIDS it clearly needs some sort of compensation.

Currently that compensation doesn't come until you gain access to late game techs, at which point you'll have already lost the game in a competitive setting simply because other factions will have pulled far ahead while you turtle and micromanage your way to these.



Imo the disharmony penalty shouldn't apply to science, because you need to expand or die in this game and expanding kills your research far too quick, compared to when you can rush any alleviating tech.
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12 years ago
Jul 15, 2013, 3:30:35 AM
XLNC wrote:
Well the FIS needs to be equal (or at least in a respectable vicinity) of other races FIDS value. The whole reason for lumping FIDS together in one score to begin with is that they're supposed to be roughly equal in value. Therefore if you just cut 25% of a races FIDS it clearly needs some sort of compensation.

Currently that compensation doesn't come until you gain access to late game techs, at which point you'll have already lost the game in a competitive setting simply because other factions will have pulled far ahead while you turtle and micromanage your way to these.
The compensation is there from the moment the game begins. No upkeep costs on anything. No need for approval. The current weakness in the early game has nothing to do with lack of dust aand everything to do with lack of heroes (which can be remedied).



Imo the disharmony penalty shouldn't apply to science, because you need to expand or die in this game and expanding kills your research far too quick, compared to when you can rush any alleviating tech.
The real problem with the disharmony penalty is that it's applied to industry. The application to science isn't as much a problem as reducing the industry available for conversion. Believe me, I've tested it extensively. Industry is the single most important production for the harmony because of the way their production cycle works.
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12 years ago
Jul 15, 2013, 6:14:01 AM
Harmony always crush me when I play againt 2 IA, I can destroy one but the second faction if it's harmony invade me like zerg with very big ship
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11 years ago
Mar 2, 2014, 3:02:45 PM
Harmony is definitely inconsistent in multiplayer and I blame the food\growth penalty when you build a non-colony ship. If you are next to an aggressive player from the start you are slowly crippled because you need to build ships. Get rid of the penalty for non-colony ships and it can compete with other factions.



The disharmony penalty is fine in my opinion, just give a rock a chance to grow while fighting for their right to be a rock in a galaxy of not-rocks.
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11 years ago
Mar 2, 2014, 5:39:25 PM
Madcow wrote:
Harmony is definitely inconsistent in multiplayer and I blame the food\growth penalty when you build a non-colony ship. If you are next to an aggressive player from the start you are slowly crippled because you need to build ships. Get rid of the penalty for non-colony ships and it can compete with other factions.



The disharmony penalty is fine in my opinion, just give a rock a chance to grow while fighting for their right to be a rock in a galaxy of not-rocks.


This is a fairly old thread and it has 13 pages so I don't know what there is left to say that isn't being repeated.



Nonetheless; disharmony penalty is the Harmony's version of expansion disapproval, except expansion disapproval only (indirectly) affects dust income while disharmony fks everything else. But the Harmony also get "Dust penalty" which lowers food and science on a system by a % based on how much dust the system produces. This means they get TWO negative effects on food, one on industry, one on science, and of course no heroes to make up for this. This is utterly horrendous for growth. Personally I've found more success using 3/3 growth plan trait because otherwise you get pop at a snails pace, and this helps utilize their "+50% fids on planets with maxed pop" improvement.



Since the time of people posting in this thread the Harmony have received a buff, a flat +2 FIS per CP parked on system up to 2x CP. This barely did anything unless if you made a custom faction with traits tailored to make it more convenient to build the ships needed for this.
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11 years ago
Mar 2, 2014, 7:09:30 PM
just don't colonize dust producing planets, the dust producing planets are almost worthless in terms of fids except for terran and arid, but tundras and jungles are really good systems to settle in early.
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11 years ago
Mar 2, 2014, 10:46:25 PM
Adventurer_Blitz wrote:
just don't colonize dust producing planets, the dust producing planets are almost worthless in terms of fids except for terran and arid, but tundras and jungles are really good systems to settle in early.




I don't colonize dust until purification and then terraform the hell out of them. And the disharmony penalty isn't THAT bad if played right (of course its not good), its the slow suicide of having to spit out warships early game when an aggressive player decides you look like an easy mark. -50% is still too crippling when you have to fight from the start.
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