FluffyBunny wrote:
Hmm not sure how you culd focus a military rush - you can turn off expansion before you make the game next time so people don't accidentally win.

Maybe you could do a fight cravers on impossible on a tiny map so we can see who can survive the best, that at least would probably force something other than expanding for 30 turns.



I had a few plays on this challenge and won expansion the first time around turn 20 then went back and did military around 35 - if I had known how weak the sophon AI was I would have attacked earlier.

Played as Sophon next and also won around turn 35 on military although the cravers did try to defend harder I had more than enough to deal with it.

You'd need to set up the challenge so that a) the AI is actually hostile, which means a higher difficulty level, and b) the AI is actually hostile...





Then the issue is that at serious/impossible, growth rates are a lot slower.



Turn 60 is more realistic for a cruiser / destroyer rush.







p.s. No love for my turn 31 rush? Do I have to do it in 30 turns just to prove it? Fine, attached the T29 save for a T30 military conquest





Edit ~ added a turn 31 military victory for the Sophons on that map ~ not sure if that's doable in 30, since you don't get hyperium for lasers & the cravers blockade your fleets at the end of the wormhole [meaningyoulosealot,sinceyoucannotoutgunhiminthetime/buildrequired]. I did, however, build the colonies in the wrong order. Probably doable in 30, but I'd have to think a bit harder about it.
CRAVERS - Turn 29 Military Rush.zip
SOPHONS - Turn 31 Military Victory.zip

mokaiba wrote:
What order did you research?

I general I start with "Soil xenobiology" then "N-Way fusion plants". After like I said above it depends. I research "Xenology" and "Isolation shield" in any order. If I am on ressource unlocked by xenology, I will research it first for example. Then I think I researched maybe tundra, artic or desert planets because I needed. And I focused on the non Baryonic particles (lvl 3 on the right techtree for the +40science per system). Because I wanted attack the Sophon, I develloped the wormhole engine and I focused then on the "colonisation rights" via the "Botanical scanning" (left tech tree this time).



Because I made a fleet and attacked the sophons, I didn't research military yet. I wanted wait the "colonisation rights". So normally after it would be military and type of planet to colonize.



PS : Your techtrees screenshot helped me lot for the names of the researches

Photon_Ventdesdunes wrote:
I general I start with "Soil xenobiology" then "N-Way fusion plants". After like I said above it depends. I research "Xenology" and "Isolation shield" in any order. If I am on ressource unlocked by xenology, I will research it first for example. Then I think I researched maybe tundra, artic or desert planets because I needed. And I focused on the non Baryonic particles (lvl 3 on the right techtree for the +40science per system). Because I wanted attack the Sophon, I develloped the wormhole engine and I focused then on the "colonisation rights" via the "Botanical scanning" (left tech tree this time).



Because I made a fleet and attacked the sophons, I didn't research military yet. I wanted wait the "colonisation rights". So normally after it would be military and type of planet to colonize.



PS : Your techtrees screenshot helped me lot for the names of the researches

I've tried every combo I could think of and the best I could get was this:



Step 1

Soil Xenobiology

Ind-Sci main system which lowers soil xenobiology to 4 turns.



Step 2

Max tax for 5 turns then on turn 14 buy sustainable farms then Ind-Sci

Xenology - finishes at turn 16

Colonize Rhea then Ind-Sci Rhea



Step 3

N-Way Fusion plants

max tax rate 3 turns then buy rhea sustainable farm



Step 4

Xenobotany - turn 26



Step 5? - Particle and neural need more than 4 turns to complete.



No matter what I tried I could not colonize five systems before turn 30 or get more than 3 systems with xenobotony researched.







These are the types of how to steps I am looking for, which is another reason why a video of the 30-turn challenge would be best.

I tried also as Sophons (the first save t0 works to take both races) and these are my stats :



Score : 302

I have 8 planets in 4 systems and 36 populations



Food : 460

Industry : 262

Science : 430

Dust : 96+22



chall4-t30 Photon version sophons.zip



They can "speed" much less than the Cravers, sure. What I felt missing was the industry. I started by colonizing the jungle in my own system. Any other question can wait, I'm tired

Anyway, I'm glad, I think I understand very little by little.

mokaiba wrote:
I've tried every combo I could think of and the best I could get was this:



Step 1

Soil Xenobiology

Ind-Sci main system which lowers soil xenobiology to 4 turns.



Step 2

Max tax for 5 turns then on turn 14 buy sustainable farms then Ind-Sci

Xenology - finishes at turn 16

Colonize Rhea then Ind-Sci Rhea



Step 3

N-Way Fusion plants

max tax rate 3 turns then buy rhea sustainable farm



Step 4

Xenobotany - turn 26



Step 5? - Particle and neural need more than 4 turns to complete.



No matter what I tried I could not colonize five systems before turn 30 or get more than 3 systems with xenobotony researched.







These are the types of how to steps I am looking for, which is another reason why a video of the 30-turn challenge would be best.

Like I wrote I'm tired so I read fast. One thing I think to advise You is to not ind=>dust except negative dust. Instead, lower the tax and let the people build in ecstatic mood.

Here's a turn 31 military conquest victory. As in, it's turn 31, press end turn, you win.



Basically, I got sloppy & left my primary planet on industry > dust instead of pumping out support fleet, which was dumb (and why I've got 190 dust). If I'd been tighter on that, easily possibly @ turn 30.





~ the turn 31 save is doing it using kinetics + internal planets.



~ the turn 30 save is doing it using lasers + wide expansion. You'll notice that this will also take until turn 32 ~ mostly due to a mistake with a colony ship [didn'twanttotriggertheexpansionvictory,butdidn'tknowexactlythecutoffpoint~sothatshouldn'thavebeenbuilt,andinsteadshouldhavebeendust>retrofitanotherhull]. Lasers take a lot more tech time, which you get by larger expansion ~ just.





Both weren't done very well (not feeling so good ), and can easily be both turned into turn 30 military conquests (the laser will be harder to convert ~ you need to retrofit cheap hulls rather than build direct).







So, meh: technically didn't fit the brief, but it's possible. The trick, btw, is to use the melee char on your first planet, but build hulls on your second ~ thus leveling both heroes, and use him for every battle, which is how he's @ melee 15. I also probably had too many weapons on my ships, given their numerical advantage [onlyeverfight2protectors] ~ if you can squeeze an invasion tech in there instead, might be better.
CRAVERS - Turn 31.zip
CRAVERS - Turn 30.zip

Photon_Ventdesdunes wrote:
I tried also as Sophons (the first save t0 works to take both races)

I thought of using only one save for both. But, in the original save game file, Cravers is listed as having a human player. So I thought if I loaded the save and chose Sophons, the Cravers would never move. Did you see any evidence that the Cravers were moving?

davea wrote:
Did you see any evidence that the Cravers were moving?

He attacked me twice



Edit : davea, can I ask You the precise settings you chose to generate the galaxy ?

davea wrote:
Any suggestions on how to make a challenge which will focus on military rush? Maybe a four player game so expansion is essentially impossible?

Hmm not sure how you culd focus a military rush - you can turn off expansion before you make the game next time so people don't accidentally win.

Maybe you could do a fight cravers on impossible on a tiny map so we can see who can survive the best, that at least would probably force something other than expanding for 30 turns.



I had a few plays on this challenge and won expansion the first time around turn 20 then went back and did military around 35 - if I had known how weak the sophon AI was I would have attacked earlier.

Played as Sophon next and also won around turn 35 on military although the cravers did try to defend harder I had more than enough to deal with it.

Well, this is very helpful. In my result, I do not think I was anywhere close to an expansion victory, but I won a military victory on turn 34.



I wanted to make a challenge to learn about military rush, but it seems I will be learning more about expansion. That is great.



Any suggestions on how to make a challenge which will focus on military rush? Maybe a four player game so expansion is essentially impossible?



Another challenge idea I had was to take this exact map, but put the "shoe on the other foot". I have modified the turn zero save game so that you start as Sophons, and the Cravers are AI. In this case I was hoping that the AI will rush you, and you will have to defend.



Any takers? I have not verified that the save game works, but I have attached it to this post.
chall4-sophon-t0.zip

4x_fan - I liked your strategy using the melee hero.

I was trying out some rush strats on standard maps/opponents, revisited this challenge and got a turn26 conquest win.

could improve on that end time but would prefer to play different maps tbh.
challenge4-Turn 26-MC8192.zip

MC8192 wrote:
4x_fan - I liked your strategy using the melee hero.

I was trying out some rush strats on standard maps/opponents, revisited this challenge and got a turn26 conquest win.

could improve on that end time but would prefer to play different maps tbh.

Hmm. It looks like the heroes' abilities have changed. I noticed this in a different game, but forgot.



So the progression of +3 labour, +25 prod, +20% industry is far better than +10 labour. Can't say I think that this is good design, since those percentages should really be competitive (i.e. choose a weak initial boost or a long term higher maximum % raise ~ now, the +10 path is pure folly).



Also, you went with spamming pure invasion builds + engines after the initial forces.







Nicely done, I'll remember both of those!

Photon_Ventdesdunes wrote:
davea, can I ask You the precise settings you chose to generate the galaxy ?

From the OP: "tiny spiral map, 2 empires, Cravers, hard difficulty, no pirates". I don't think I changed any of the defaults. It is "spiral-2". It is generated with version 0.30.3, which appears to be important since the wormhole generation frequency is very different between 0.20, 0.30.3 and 0.30.5. Is there something odd about the map which you would like to investigate more?

OK, I have looked into the saves. Now I am confused about why I did *not* win an expansion victory in my T30 save. I have 6 systems and 45 pop, which is more than Photon's T26 expansion win save (6 systems 38 pop). I corrected my stats in the OP, cut and paste error. Two heroes, both L4, with the +25 ind and +10% ind, stationed at the smallest planets to help growth. 15 techs, more than other players, although my save is from a few turns later. Although I aimed the challenge at a rush, it appears I grew my economy "too much" and should have focused on military. Can anybody see why the game did not grant me an expansion victory, compared to photon?



Here's what I can see in the other saves. There were a number of different choices.



MC8192: 20 pop, 13 techs, but a fleet of 35 "zerglings" which are corvettes with 1 engine and 5x ground weapons. *35* ! Not that it probably matters in this game, but they are unarmed, and if the enemy had mounted any ships with weapons I am not sure what would happen. I suppose ships with only ground weapons cannot damage ships, and therefore the enemy could have blocked by sitting any ship on their home planet.



Photon: 38 pop, 13 techs, 3 ships (kin/def). Won expansion victory, did not appear (to me) to be on a military rush path.



4x_fan: 29 pop, 12 techs; 5 ships (kin/S2G). Two L4 heroes, one with melee, one with director 3. How much benefit does melee give? What are the tradeoffs between director 3 vs the industry bonuses? (In 0.30.5 the tradeoffs are again different.) These ships seem better suited for a military victory, assuming the enemy launches any ships.

davea - In your turn30 save you were 96% to expansion victory - capturing the first sophon system (low approval for x turns) instead of colonizing your 6th system might be the difference.



In my attempt, weapons were the last thing researched. The first attack force had 18 kinetic ships. I would have built reinforments with upgraded weapons instead of invasion but the AI had nothing by then.

Thanks, I did not realize approval factored into expansion victory -- that is not documented. How does it relate?



You had 18 ships, *before* you had the 35 ships? Wow.

I just checked your t30 save and you win expansion on turn 34. The system you took was in strike and needed to upgrade a level.



The 18 kinetic ships are still there at the end + the 17 invasion ones. I should have made a new design/name for the invasion ships to make that clearer.

Plugging the next challenge:

/#/endless-space/forum/27-general/thread/7890-challenge-120-turn-challenge-plus-ai-data-gathering

One of the main goals of the challenge threads (at least my goal) is to look in your save game, so I can see what I missed and learn from it. For this reason, please zip/attach save games if possible.

I enjoyed reading through the other challenge threads - might have a crack at this one tomorrow. Don't think I have even played a tiny map yet so will be interesting.



edit - had problems downloading the file, logging in using another browser fixed it.

@davea - your pm box is full!

It is working for me, downloading on a different computer than I uploaded. Were you able to download the attachments for my other challenges? What point are you getting stuck at?

Sorry, when you say the "login screen" do you mean the screen in the game where you can choose which player to join as? That is what is supposed to happen. Join as Cravers. Have you played save games from other players? They all work this way. See more description here:



http://forums.amplitude-studios.com/showthread.php?2131-!!-able-to-rejoin-game-as-any-ai-player-!!

It might be the login screen of the forum. Empty the cache of your browser after log in. You should be able to download after.

won via expansion victory on turn 20.

total population=24, food=170, industry=330, science=265.

davea, how are you caculating population/fids as the numbers in your turn30 are way higher than what you posted here.

MC8192 wrote:
@davea - your pm box is full!

Huh. 50 seems like a tiny limit. Thanks for letting me know, I emptied it.

won via expansion victory on turn 20.

Interesting. Can you zip and attach your save? I wasn't trying for expansion, but that works. Care to try for a military victory instead?

davea, how are you caculating population/fids as the numbers in your turn30 are way higher than what you posted here

With a calculator, adding up the numbers in the empire management screen. Surely for pop, that is the only way to measure.

13/49 pop

45 food

55 industry

67 science

31 dust



I count turn 30 ending as part of to turn 30...so it ends with turn 31.



I'll add my complete 1-30 video in a bit.
CRAVERS - Turn 30a.zip

MC8192 wrote:
won via expansion victory on turn 20.

total population=24, food=170, industry=330, science=265.

davea, how are you caculating population/fids as the numbers in your turn30 are way higher than what you posted here.

Something seems off here.

On forums for other games I have been involved in, sometimes players share a game in order to learn. I consider myself an "OK" player but I usually play on normal difficulty and win 50/50 of the time. So obviously I can learn more. I would like to compare results. If you got better than me, I'd like to understand your strategy. If I got better than you, I'll explain what I was trying to do.



The attached zip file has a save game at turn 0 of a tiny spiral map, 2 empires, Cravers, hard difficulty, no pirates. I have also attached my result after 30 turns. The goal of this game is to win in the minimum number of turns. I was exploring rush strategies in another thread, and I was thinking that a wormhole would slow down a rush.



(EDIT: clarification: I was actually hoping for *military* rush, ie a conquest victory. Sorry that was not clear.)



My results at the end of turn 30: total population=18, food=127, industry=172, science=74.



(EDIT: this appears to be a cut and paste error where I left in the values from a different challenge. I do not suck *that* bad. Correct values: pop=45, food=441, industry=415, science=263)



This is a learning experience, not a competition. Please avoid the various duplication exploits, and submit your first playthrough.



The attached zip has a save game "chall4-t0" which is at turn 0, and a save game "chall4-t30" which is at turn 30.



If you like the challenges, join the group: http://forums.amplitude-studios.com/group.php?groupid=80 and tell me what you would like to see next.

mokaiba wrote:
I count turn 30 ending as part of to turn 30...so it ends with turn 31. I'll add my complete 1-30 video in a bit.

Expansion or military victory? YMMV, but I probably won't watch a video. Too long, and too many questions, compared to just looking in a save.

davea wrote:
Expansion or military victory? YMMV, but I probably won't watch a video. Too long, and too many questions, compared to just looking in a save.

No victory. I'm the type who takes his time then ends it with crushing force.



With the ability to modify the bins to make yourself 1337, I am choosing to provide video proof that I did not cheat.



Plus, I thought knowing how someone got to their result was more important than the result itself, otherwise, what is the point of these challenges?

I wasnt trying for expansion victory either - only had 6 systems.

challenge4_turn19_MC8192.zip

MC8192 wrote:
I wasnt trying for expansion victory either - only had 6 systems.

challenge4_turn19_MC8192.zip

How'd you research so much? and in what order?



Mine after 30 turns selecting your options: http://postimage.org/image/uwlr35df5/full/



Yours after 20 turns: http://postimage.org/image/6267h9kjf/full/

I tried and tried to not win by expansion until turn 26 when I forgot and took one more system. So I have a win save a turn 26.



I reload the turn before colonization (so no cheat, 1 turn it's nothing. moreover I didn't made mistake to correct)

And did not colonize until the save turn 30.

Here are my stats.

Score : 326



I have 10 planets in 5 systems with 46+1 populations (+1 for the ship to colonize I had but did not use)



Food : 488

Ind : 448

Science : 532

Dust : 135+6



First time I play Cravers. I don't know what to explain so much. I tried this time to research the +40 science per system fast (non baryonic particles ?). Thanks to that, I don't have a too abd final score in research. I'm even better than the Sophon. I don't know really what else to say. Ask questions



turn26win&turn30challenge.zip



I feel quite good after this challenge, but I'm sure a fluffybunny will come and ends with 60 pop or more XD.

@mokaiba - you're missing the first 2 techs on the right tree, production and science multipliers.

MC8192 wrote:
@mokaiba - you're missing the first 2 techs on the right tree, production and science multipliers.

I confirm, the four technos : the 2 firsts on the right tech tree for industry and science and the two firsts on left tech tree for dust and food are maybe the most important to devellop at the beginning. Maybe a arid or tundra expansion between them but still.

Photon_Ventdesdunes wrote:
I tried and tried to not win by expansion until turn 26 when I forgot and took one more system. So I have a win save a turn 26.



I reload the turn before colonization (so no cheat, 1 turn it's nothing. moreover I didn't made mistake to correct)

And did not colonize until the save turn 30.

Here are my stats.

Score : 326



I have 10 planets in 5 systems with 46+1 populations (+1 for the ship to colonize I had but did not use)



Food : 488

Ind : 448

Science : 532

Dust : 135+6



First time I play Cravers. I don't know what to explain so much. I tried this time to research the +40 science per system fast (non baryonic particles ?). Thanks to that, I don't have a too abd final score in research. I'm even better than the Sophon. I don't know really what else to say. Ask questions



turn26win&turn30challenge.zip



I feel quite good after this challenge, but I'm sure a fluffybunny will come and ends with 60 pop or more XD.

What order did you research?