AI, Blockade, and invasions - Endless Space

AI, Blockade, and invasions

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Calico

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Calico

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 21, 2012, 12:20:55 AM

yeah, i was hoping that intercepting enemy fleets would stop them from blockading the system too. Was kinda annoying last time i conquered a system, had a fleet on guard and a enemy fleet (max cap) plus a single scout in system. Since Player Fleets don't get to choose a target, my fleet was always aiming at the poor lonely scout instead of the max cap fleet in the same system.... and every turn i destroyed a scout, the enemy sent in a new one, leading to an almost endless cycle of destroying scouts every single turn. After a while i just made a second fleet of a single destroyer to get rid of the problem... anyway, it shouldn't happen that a system with a fleet on guard can be blockaded/invaded without destroying the guarding Fleet first. Granted, it's a big improvement that ships don't get past my line of defense anymore.

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davea

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davea

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 21, 2012, 9:03:12 PM

Centralizing discussion over here:

http://forums.amplitude-studios.com/showthread.php?3047-annoyance-enemy-can-maintain-blockade-break-siege-with-scouts

Thread closed/

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MODNosferatiel

Informer

"God's in his heaven, all's right with the world." Nerv Motto, Neon Genesis Evangelion

MODNosferatiel

Informer

13 years ago

May 21, 2012, 8:40:18 PM

davea wrote:
We need some solution for scout blockade. Maybe a star fortress, like you suggest. Maybe something else.

Someone once suggested that a blockading fleet needs to exceed the systems MP.

I'd like it even more, if any blockading fleet would need to exceed system + defending fleet MP. That might be more intuitive.

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davea

Newcomer

davea

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 21, 2012, 5:13:41 PM

To be clear, blockading is not related to the block action. Block prevents enemy ships from leaving your system, that is all. So if you have fleets on block at all your frontier worlds, this only guarantees that the enemy will not be able to move new ships into your interior. At the frontier worlds, their scouts will still blockade you, which is annoying.

We need some solution for scout blockade. Maybe a star fortress, like you suggest. Maybe something else.

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Anteru

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Anteru

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 21, 2012, 3:28:51 PM

davea wrote:
It is definitely annoying to have scout blockades at frontier worlds, and something should be done about that. But non-frontier worlds should not have this problem anymore.

I still get enemy ships on my systems where a fleet block action is used. They don't attack, so it's just "blockade". The fleet block action only defends against invasion or attack, doesn't it? I definitely have seen situations where a fleet was set on defend and an enemy fleet was orbiting the system, making it "blocked" without my fleet automatically attacking the enemy.

The easiest solution would be to have a defense station/stationary defense on the planet with an MP value, which automatically attacks blockading forces. Similar to the master of orion 2 space stations and rocket bases. That would solve the problem in late-game when you can just easily build a star fortress or whatever at your important systems and be done with it. If no defense station is present, the MP of the surrounding fleets should be used. This way, in late game, you'll require large forces to block a planet without engaging in war directly. Making cold war slightly more interesting. However, I would be fine if you cannot blockade as long as an enemy fleet is present (i.e. you have to fight with it first.) Might make lots of stuff easier and prevents people from parking fleets at the enemy's systems. Of course, even more complex defenses like the mines, automated drones etc. would be cool. Fleets in a hangar should also count against the anti-blockade score, as it doesn't make sense to have a 6-planet system pumping out 6-7 battleships per turn and getting blocked by an enemy destroyer.

One question left here is a transport system (let it be "automatic trade routes") inside your empire, which transports surplus goods around. Especially food; and if blocked, it cannot be sent/received. In this situation, blockade would be a strong strategy to deny the enemy important resources, making it even more important to secure the food creating planets and binding lots of resources to build transports.

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davea

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davea

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 21, 2012, 3:04:48 PM

Several people have commented that enemy ships blockade non-frontier worlds. Are you using the fleet block action at your borders? This is the icon (added in 0.30.3) which looks like a globe with a shield to the left. If you use this on a single ship at each frontier world, you may be guaranteed that no new ships will penetrate your borders. In the late game, when the enemy ships can free travel using warp drive, this may be less useful.

It is definitely annoying to have scout blockades at frontier worlds, and something should be done about that. But non-frontier worlds should not have this problem anymore.

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chuckrman

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chuckrman

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 21, 2012, 12:18:32 PM

Ther one ship blockade is annoying and disruptive. Could be outrageous in human hands. I mentioned earlier in a post about colonization expansion that I had to keep a defensive fleet around these are the exact ships I am dealing with. Small one ship fleets. If the planets could defend themselves the ships would be annialated. Instead I have to constantly move fleets in a position to chase down these ships despite my border worlds being sealed. It seems you really cannot have a defensive strategy in this game. That means expansion is your only option. This defeats the purpose (to a certain exent) of having many ways to win the game. Instead conquering thew galaxy or having the most points at the end of 300 turns is the only way to win.

I do like the idea of being able to blockade a system but it should have some level of constraint like the MP idea but lets face it. Only the Microlevel that this game does not really address (by design I am sure and that is ok) each system would have patrol craft etc. So the planets should have some level of defensive modifier that is required to be exceeded to successfully blockade. You can stack that with any friendly fleets in system. This would allow the blockade to still be a tool but balanced out.

I also would really like an intercept feature when two fleets cross paths. Chasing fleets gets annoying when they are faster then my ships and go right past my fleets.

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DeadEyeTucker

Newcomer

DeadEyeTucker

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 21, 2012, 11:54:04 AM

I agree with everything said above. Random idea though, would be cool to use the blockade as a passive aggressive tool to manipulate the AI. For example, you colonize a new world, but the AI you're in a cold war with keeps trying to take it. So you blockade 1 or more of their systems and use that as a tool to get them to leave your new colony alone. Or it could be used in a very mean way too. Think of Trade Federation and Naboo

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NulEnvoid

Survivor

NulEnvoid

Survivor

13 years ago

May 21, 2012, 11:45:21 AM

This tends to disrupt some otherwise decent games

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MortMan

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MortMan

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 21, 2012, 10:09:13 AM

Last game I had a key world (Titanium) on the border. I stationed a huge fleet and a hero to guard the world. This worked great except that I was continually blockaded causing all production using Titanium to halt. It seems I could only intercept 1 fleet per turn so the AI was blockading me by attacking with multiple fleets.

I would like blockades to only be effective is the enemy fleet is greater than the defending fleet (or that a blockade takes a few turns to activate).

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K1ller

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K1ller

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 21, 2012, 7:12:41 AM

Well, speaking of AI in my territory, I would really welcome the possibility to stop enemy fleets flying through my territory at all. It really should be able to do this only with active open borders or at war. And if AI or I need to see their system for commerce, let us exchange starmaps. But to be honest, the whole AI should be remade and I hope it will. Currently it seems to me as the exact copy of Civ 5 AI, and to be honest, it can not be called AI at all. I always play the good guy, yet in 99% of my games the AI gets mad at me and declares war, just because we have a common border, or just because I am bigger but with smaller fleet. Last time AI declared war on me because it wanted to colonize systems in my sphere of influence. Well how about to ask me if they can colonize them? I would be happy to allow it as we have been at peace most of the game.

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craigbic

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craigbic

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 21, 2012, 5:32:36 AM

I totally agree, scout blockade is highly annoying. A diplomatic option for forcing a faction to remove their ships from your territory would be great.

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doguso

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doguso

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 21, 2012, 12:35:16 AM

What's highly annoying about the blockade right now is when you have two or three planets which are vital to your empire, and are easily accessible by everyone, and the enemy sends in 5 small ships to block EVERY planet every turn, making it near impossible to progress and build things you need in a war. In a normal war, being on the defensive side tends to be an advantage. However in this game, being defensive can be a huge disadvantage. Between blockades by a 5 power ship that can easily be mass built and raids on your empire on every corner by these small ships can be annoying. Without focusing sololy on military or splitting your fleet (divide and conquer), these tiny ships can really ruin your economy or ninja systems away because you can't easily defend every system (it's even harder with the 1 combat per turn rule).

It might just be me but being destroyed by tiny vessels is a little annoying, especially when it takes all of my focus away from my economy/research. If I had to pull away because of BIG fleets attacking my system, I'd be ok with that.

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Anteru

Newcomer

Anteru

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 20, 2012, 8:24:49 AM

Somehow either I don't get how the invasion stuff works. I often have AI just place random fleets around my planets, resulting in "blockade" (the fleets are like one scout or so), and as soon as I attack them to get rid of them, of course the AI declares war as I attacked it. There's no diplomatic option to get the AI off my planets, and I cannot "unblock" by placing a way larger fleet in orbit. Am I missing something, or is this supposed to work this way? For the record, having 6 fleets of 7 battleships is not enough to unblock a blockade by one colony ship; even worse, you cannot settle on an empty system as long as there is an enemy ship in orbit. Having to attack a scout to be able to colonize while the orbit is full of ships from my fleet doesn't make sense.

It also gets more ridiculous when a peace treaty is involved: One of my AI neighbours has a peace treaty, and starts an invasion on my planet. I can only stop it by placing a fleet of my own at the planet. What the heck? Even worse, the "invasion progress bar" is mostly red from the neighbour and doesn't recover, even though I have lots of anti-invasion improvements built -- as his fleet is still orbiting my planet. How can I resolve this without breaking the peace and declaring war?

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Fenrakk101

Oddity

Bridge Arsonist

Fenrakk101

Oddity

13 years ago

May 20, 2012, 10:07:46 PM

LordAshanti wrote:
Also a coldwar oponent being able to try to take over an outpost with a fleet in the hangar bay is silly. When I launched the fleet the invasion progress didn't stop but simply didn't advance anymore. I also couldn't destroy the fleet that was attacking without triggering a war with the cold war opponent. You should have some kind of diplomatic option to ask the AI to leave a system alone.

Well technically the outpost is not a colony. It also says in the tutorials that any AI can take over an outpost, because it's not technically part of your empire until it's established as a colony.

But there really should be a way of telling the AI to piss off.

As for blockades, I think it should be measured in MP; if you have a fleet with a greater MP, you negate the blockade. If you have no ships in orbit, then a scout may as well blockade your colony; but if you have a cruiser orbiting the planet, the scout can't do anything.

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LordAshanti

Newcomer

LordAshanti

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 20, 2012, 9:51:55 PM

I agree that there should be a solution towards the scout blockading issue. Maybe blockading a system should require a bigger fleet or at least the usage of a non scout, non coloniser ship. It can be handy to use your fleet blockading to deny a AI it's scoutships with heroes though.

Also a coldwar oponent being able to try to take over an outpost with a fleet in the hangar bay is silly. When I launched the fleet the invasion progress didn't stop but simply didn't advance anymore. I also couldn't destroy the fleet that was attacking without triggering a war with the cold war opponent. You should have some kind of diplomatic option to ask the AI to leave a system alone.

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Sealwhopper

Newcomer

Sealwhopper

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 20, 2012, 9:37:56 PM

skynet464 wrote:
What they should do is make it so that you have to around 500mp to blockade a system. That way scouts cant blockade a system just because they happen to be in one.

That scout blockade is getting on my nerves too.

However in my opinion it should not matter the MP, but rather as long as there are still ships defending the planet there cannot be a blockade.

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davea

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davea

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 20, 2012, 4:00:15 PM

The fleet block action is not really related to blockades, although it is easy to see how they can be confused. The fleet block action prevents ships from *leaving* the system. This is good, and prevents enemies from intruding past your border systems. There is a side effect that the enemy pathfinding does not account for this once it encounters it. I have noticed that when I have a fleet on block at a chokepoint, ships of all different races get stuck there. Sort of like the "roach motel" -- "Scouts check in, but they don't check out".

Enemy fleets which are in the system will blockade, regardless of any friendly fleets. This is bad, and should be fixed. It is especially annoying when it is done by two scouts, and there is no notification. If I happen to notice, I can attack the scout. But if I have one ship on defense, I can only attack one scout. So the other one blockades.

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skynet464

Newcomer

skynet464

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 20, 2012, 3:56:28 PM

What they should do is make it so that you have to around 500mp to blockade a system. That way scouts cant blockade a system just because they happen to be in one.

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Anteru

Newcomer

Anteru

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 20, 2012, 2:50:45 PM

Weird. The blockade stuff seems to be broken anyway, I have several fleets on a planet all set to "defend", and yet an enemy (this time really enemy, at war) scout comes into orbit and makes the system blocked -- without being intercepted by the fleet in orbit. I don't understand why that is not working; even worse, how can a 68 strength scout blockade against a 28k MP fleet?

I definitely prefer the system from Master of Orion, where only one fleet can be in orbit, and blocks if it's an enemy fleet. Having fleets from 3-4 different players on the same system makes it near impossible to ever get it unblocked (had to split flit just to attack each enemy in turn.)

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Platescale

Drakken

Platescale

Drakken

13 years ago

May 20, 2012, 1:13:28 PM

I usually find that scout losses - whether by me destroying enemy scouts or by my scouts getting destroyed by the enemy - don't lead to war. So I go ahead and destroy cold-war scouts that enter my territory and I shrug and build more scouts when my own are destroyed in enemy territory.

As long as the only fire is being exchanged on scouts, wars don't break out over this behavior. I've just come to assume that scouting-specced ships are 'deniable assets'.

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grasspuddle

Newcomer

grasspuddle

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 20, 2012, 12:25:08 PM

It is very annoying that ships flying around exploring will blockade pretty much everyone because peace is tough to maintain. Would like to see this changed a little. Is this why my scout ships are always attacked in cold war neighbor territories?

Until your outpost becomes a full fledged colony, anyone can take it. Destroying ships seems to be the only option right now. Would like a diplomatic one.

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stolen

Newcomer

stolen

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 20, 2012, 9:10:26 AM

Plus one vote for civ option here too, also I believe you can do it once your influence bubble expands. In theory (never seen it yet) the enemy fleet should be pushed out of the area unless you have "open borders" treaty with the AI

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Zanaxxdu

Newcomer

Zanaxxdu

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 20, 2012, 8:39:54 AM

I agree, a diplomatic option would be nice

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Sealwhopper

Newcomer

Sealwhopper

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 20, 2012, 8:33:52 AM

hmm perhaps there should be some diplomatic option like with civ where you can force them to withdraw their ships from your territory. Then they have to show flag whether to declare war or not.

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