Um ... guys ... we are all on the same side here, and use of bold seems to be amping up the tension level.



I think the point 4x_fan is making is, the alpha game contains bugs which are so serious, any player can fall into them by mistake. I have called these "exploits", and one could jump to the conclusion that somebody "using exploits" is "cheating". However, many players take normal actions, such as moving pop between planets, and moving builds in their queue, which happen to trigger these bugs/exploits without realizing it.



In other news, I think I understand why my play results are 3x worse (based on pop) compared to samboy29. This is because his map has high planet count. So, some of my neighboring systems are crappy one-lava, or asteroid-plus-gas-giant. Some of his neighboring systems are nice 6-planet, ocean plus two tundra plus a resource. That is one possible reason why I had 50 pop by turn 40 and he had 180.



I will look into the save 4x_fan has posted on the attrition combat thread, and the saves samboy29 has posted here, to see what interesting things I can learn.



In still other news, I was thinking a fun challenge might be the following: how much can you improve on what the AI does, from a common start position? In my huge-impossible game with normal planet count, I have saved every 10 turns up to turn 70. One of the other AI's is in first place by a lot, and I haven't even contacted this AI yet. I will figure out which AI this is, and ask you to start as a human player on that map in that position. Then we can compare each 10 turns to see how much you can outperform the AI. This should let us give feedback to the dev team on how they can change the AI to be more competitive. What do you think?

samboy29 wrote:
Okay, finished round 50. Included save files. Essentially wonthe game already I am so far in front (have almost 10 ten times the next players score). Need a harder difficulty setting...

Actually, it looks like you're exploiting ~



Turn 50



You've stacked the Bushido bonus multiple times (this is a bug)

Somehow, you're getting +2k / turn, 93% approval rate on 40% tax (I suspect Bushido abuse here, strongly)

Industry ~ 210 on main planet becomes 636, largely due to Bushido stacking



Turn 20



You've only got a single hero, but a system with 20 pop without a hero ~ I suspect pop duping there, esp. since one of the planets is a huge tundra with no passive bonuses on it.



In fact, proven. In your turn 10 save, has the planet on 11 pop. On ending turn, it jumps to 15 pop on colonising a planet. Ooops.







/game is exploited *shrug*. You should see some of my saves on impossible, without exploiting, but abusing the retrofit > colony ship ~ much larger pop, score and so on, without stacking Bushido. Doesn't make me a great player though, just someone who knows how to abuse the mechanics in an alpha build.



I've attached a save @ turn 60 UE showing the maximal expansion rate using transports > retrofitted, but no other exploits triggered. You'll notice that your game is beating it in a lot of areas ~ but no-where near the pop / # systems / # resources. Should make it clear how broken your saves are, fyi.
UNITED EMPIRE - Turn 60.zip

I don't cheat mate, no point in it, particularly when the AI isn't challenging to begin with.

Doesn't make me a great player though, just someone who knows how to abuse the mechanics in an alpha build.

Totally agree with you there, cheating makes you nothing more than a cheat, certainly not a good player.



Judging by the description Bushido is supposed to stack (says it is cumulated)?



Edit 3: Added tooltip screenie







As for the 2k / turn 93% approval and 40% tax,check the system upgrades. I have 4 separate +thumb techs + the +thumbs from the hero.

Industry ~ 210 on main planet becomes 636, largely due to Bushido stacking

Tooltip gives an overview of where everything is coming from. ~50 from Bushido, not sure if that is more than it is meant to be but it is hardly a significant amount.









Edit:



Re: Population jump

On ending turn, it jumps to 15 pop on colonising a planet. Ooops.

I loaded that save and went end turn, and the system with 11 pop didn't change. the system at 9 went up to 10



Edit 2:



Okay, I tried a few more times, reloading the save and going end turn but the system with 11 pop hasn't gone up. Davea, or someone else, I don't suppose you can give it a try and see if the population jumps up?

You've only got a single hero, but a system with 20 pop without a hero

The first planet I colonised in that system was the terran planet, and it has had hyperscale farming the entire time. Putting out almost 100 food per turn by itself. Prioritise build +thumbs techs and you can boost the growth rate immensely.







Edit: Regarding the 15 population thing



I went next turn. Population stayed at 11. Went next turn again, and the colonisation (not involving colony ships) completed, it, for some reason went straight to a population of 2 (which I seriously doubt was supposed to happen), and it seems to have forgotten to reduce the pop from a different planet (perhaps because there was a population growth at the same time). Either way it proves that I didn't cheat.

samboy29 wrote:
I don't cheat mate, no point in it, particularly when the AI isn't challenging to begin with.

This isn't an opinion, it's a fact. Your game is exploited, however innocently / by accident it happened.



Load the turn 10 save ~ Columba is on population 11.

Select a research, end turn.

Change nothing, end turn.

Columba finishes it's colony, jumps to population 15 on turn 12.



Anyone who knows the mechanics will know that the pop dupe triggers when the build finishes.

samboy29 wrote:


Okay, I tried a few more times, reloading the save and going end turn but the system with 11 pop hasn't gone up. Davea, or someone else, I don't suppose you can give it a try and see if the population jumps up?

De Nile, it's not just a river in Egypt.





Grats, you just accidentally duped your population! No idea if you did it elsewhere, I don't really need to look over the other system.





Your game is /exploited, it's not a matter for discussion.

samboy29 wrote:


Tooltip gives an overview of where everything is coming from. ~50 from Bushido, not sure if that is more than it is meant to be but it is hardly a significant amount.

Wrong, and shows how little you know about the mechanics.



You've got +54.3 from Bushido

+95.1 from system approval ~ as I've already pointed out, @ tax rate 40% you should not have 93% approval ratings.

+40.8 from empire approval



Compare that to my turn 60 UE save's largest system ~ population 6 larger, base industry higher, tax rate 0% approval rate 87% and I only get +40.2 system / +17.3 approval from empire bonus ~ and my Empire is three times the size of yours (in systems and legit population). And unlike your game I have researched & built colonial rights...







Your save is so broken, the sad thing is, you're too clueless to see it :rolleyes:





The mechanics of Bushido bonus seem totally broken, and a % stacking error is compounding with multiplying not the base system resources but the total amount. Which is why you get ~600+ industry from a 20 pop system with a lower base industry than my 25 system with more resources... which only gets 260ish [admittedly,theherodidn'tgo+25industry/+20%becauseIdidn'tnoticesomeonenerfedthe%/labourbonusesdownto2%each,whichmakesthepurelabourresearchroutetotallypointless,butIdigress].





How's about you load up that save I attached, take a look over it, then begin to admit your save is broken, you're not the Master of 4x you imagined

Relax mate,



Yep, I accidentally exploited the population thing there.

Your save is so broken, the sad thing is, you're too clueless to see it

True, I don't understand the mechanics as well as you obviously do. Not all of us have racked up 120+ hours of gameplay.

And unlike your game I have researched & built colonial rights...

all of my high approval systems have I do have colonial rights and the Information Highway and infinite supermarkets. Check the system upgrades again.





I had a look at yours and

a) don't have Unlimited Information Highway which gives you +30 and -50% pop disapproval.

b) don't have minister of propaganda one or 2



Edit: I had a look and most of your systems only have 1 +Approval upgrade, (most are only getting +25 Approval from upgrades, mine were at +85), moreover, you have a higher planet disapproval.







I also have the game setting on fast. Obviously you don't.

samboy29 wrote:
Relax mate,



Yep, I accidentally exploited the population thing there.

Not once, but multiple times.



Naos goes from pop 4 (turn 20) to pop 19 in turn 30. 10 turns for 15 population when you've built 3+ colonies?



No.



Hidel goes from pop 8 (turn 20) to pop 20 in turn 30. 10 turns for 12 population when you build 2+ colonies?



No.



At this point, I'm counting all your planets as pop dupes. I've not even checked for industry > dust / science additional multipliers [ifabuildingqueuecancelsaconversionwithitemsafteritinthequeue,thenthe+conversionbonusesarekept].

samboy29 wrote:


I had a look at yours and

a) don't have Unlimited Information Highway which gives you +30 and -50% pop disapproval.

b) don't have minister of propaganda one or 2

You're not really understanding the issue, so I'll make it clear.



That turn 60 save uses a technique which is basically cheating: no colony ships are ever built, blank transports are built + retrofitted, leading to massive colony ship spam.



That turn 60 isn't legitimate by any stretch of the imagination, and is far larger than it should have been in terms of #population, #systems, #dust, #research etc [Imadeittopresentacaseinthebugreportforum].





If your turn 50 save is better than it, then your save is massively broken by default.







This isn't an argument, it's a case where you have to stop & say:



"Ok, yeah, I see that save is a bit borked. I'll try an impossible 5 AI match using UE or Horatio, and get back to you on whether or not the game is too easy."

That turn 60 save uses a technique which is basically cheating: no colony ships are ever built, blank transports are built + retrofitted, leading to massive colony ship spam.

I never used that exploit, although I have obviously used the other one accidentally. Yes, that means the save aint legit. I didn't notice this happen, as I tend to rush through my turns and not pay attention to details like that, hence why I was finding it too easy.

[ifabuildingqueuecancelsaconversionwithitemsafteritinthequeue,thenthe+conversionbonusesarekept].

Gah how many exploits are there at the moment. I don't suppose there is a thread somewhere listing them so I can try to avoid 'em.

Not once, but multiple times.

I never said once, I have no idea how many times it occurred because I wasn't aware of it





Jeesh you are easy agitated ... I just play the game for a bit of fun, basically blundering about.

samboy29 wrote:
I never used that exploit, although I have obviously used the other one accidentally. Yes, that means the save aint legit. I didn't notice this happen, as I tend to rush through my turns and not pay attention to details like that, hence why I was finding it too easy.

I was referring to my turn 60 save as using the transport refit cheat/exploit. As I quite openly mentioned in the post when I attached it ~ it's a useful yard stick for UE games as it's so broken.

samboy29 wrote:
Gah how many exploits are there at the moment. I don't suppose there is a thread somewhere listing them so I can try to avoid 'em.

Check Davea's sig ~ quick list of the ones that you can avoid:



#1 Population dupe by building and same time, end turn

#2 Population dupe by building and moving population between planets end turn

#3 Industry / Science <-> Dust exploit, cancellation when in queue keeps bonuses

#4 Building blank transports > retrofitting them as colony ships

#5 Going into -negative dust (although this is likely fixed now)

samboy29 wrote:
Jeesh you are easy agitated ... I just play the game for a bit of fun, basically blundering about.

Actually, you denied twice that your game was broken and made large threads about "AI is too easy". When easily proven that this wasn't the case, you appealed to a third party & have been passive-aggressive "No worries, hey, I'm chill here mate" and suggesting my responses are somehow aggressive / unprofessional, which is very... adolescent behaviour.





Alpha build ~ reports have to be accurate, or the wrong balance will get figured in. If the dev team used your game as a "legitimate" one, and balanced the AI to it, the game would be broken.

Actually, you denied twice that your game was broken and made large threads about "AI is too easy".

Yep, trouble was that I believed that I hadn't used any exploits at the time. Obviously that isn't the case. Appeal to a third party because I couldn't replicate the 15 pop thing because I was confused (at the time I didn't realise I had to go forward 2 turns.) Either way, it's resolved now which is good.



Thanks for the list of exploits to watch out for.

Alpha build ~ reports have to be accurate, or the wrong balance will get figured in

Very true.





Edit:

#3 Industry / Science <-> Dust exploit, cancellation when in queue keeps bonuses

To avoid this I just have to drag the Prod > Sci / Dust to the bottom of the que instead of cancelling then?



Not sure how to avoid the bushido bug though, short of waiting 15 turns before taking another system. Play a different race until it is fixed I suppose..

Okay, finished round 50. Included save files. Essentially wonthe game already I am so far in front (have almost 10 ten times the next players score). Need a harder difficulty setting...



Progress:



Score: Me (1st) 21,130 Horatio(2nd): 2751



Military:

- Invading: 324 ships

- Defending: 71 ships



Economy:

Dust: 1850 p/t(40% tax)

Science: 2773 p/t

Population: 236 p/t

Production: 3646 p/t







Edit: Decided to try make it interesting by declaring war on everyone and launching a simultaneous invasion force on every thing I can get to. Results at turn 60, Blue only has 2 systems left.



Score: Me (1st) 54,114 Horatio(2nd): 3,226



Military:

- Invading: 472 ships remaining

- Defending: 159 ships



Economy:

Dust: 4,466 p/t(40% tax)

Science: 5,202 p/t

Population: 379 p/t

Production: 6191 p/t




HISSHO - Turn 50.zip

It's a good idea, too bad I don't have much time for playing but it will be interesting to see what you guys with 100+ hours will find out

Next challenge is here:

/#/endless-space/forum/27-general/thread/7868-challenge-help-the-ai-get-better

4x_Fan wrote:
The mechanics of Bushido bonus seem totally broken, and a % stacking error is compounding with multiplying not the base system resources but the total amount. Which is why you get ~600+ industry from a 20 pop system with a lower base industry than my 25 system with more resources... which only gets 260ish [admittedly,theherodidn'tgo+25industry/+20%becauseIdidn'tnoticesomeonenerfedthe%/labourbonusesdownto2%each,whichmakesthepurelabourresearchroutetotallypointless,butIdigress].

Is there a specific thread for this so I can add it to the exploit thread? If not could you make one and let me know? Also if there are any exploits I have missed in that thread please let me know. I have lost track of whether there is one population moving exploit or two.

Well Im new to the game, but i really love such turnements *grin* so here is mine



Save.zip

@topic:



The Zips include my files form turn 30, 60, 100, 120, 150 and 180.

Note that the game will end turn 183 if you hold the Terran homeworld.



@offtopic:



@samboy29: the problem with the expolit is you play on FAST (!), which means that bug will happen quite often due to the fastened production cycles.

Also: a game on fast is NOT compareable to "normal" gamespeed - or using the "get the coloshipmodul per dust"-exploit if u want compareable results. (I look at you davea)





Sincerly
Challenge 180 (end).zip
Challnge till 100.zip

Saranea wrote:
@samboy29: the problem with the expolit is you play on FAST (!), which means that bug will happen quite often due to the fastened production cycles.

Also: a game on fast is NOT compareable to "normal" gamespeed - or using the "get the coloshipmodul per dust"-exploit if u want compareable results. (I look at you davea)

Ah! Another difference to note. Thanks!



I will analyze the various games hopefully in the next few hours and update on what I have found.

Thanks to soleros and saranea for the saves. I have not dug into the saves to pull out any statistics for comparison. If you like, please pull out the statistics on population, and maybe write a few lines of "after action report" so we can discuss.



For my secondary goal, I have built the spreadsheets of each AI's tech order. However, all I can say so far is that the AI chooses different techs in different playthroughs. I need to think some more about how to "visualize" this data, otherwise it is just a long list of funny names. Hopefully I will have something interesting to look at in a couple of days.

The thing that bothered me was the start.

The position, the planets and the starting anomaly added up to a challenging start which was over past turn 80.

Until then it was a strugle and i felt behind.



Well, maybe it's because my playstil favor the econemy & cruiser over the destroyer - and I dislike destroyer rushing.





Sincerly

Somehow I am just not getting it. I can grind out to the middle game and I get bored waiting for planetary assaults. Samboy29 has suggested that my challenges are too wimpy. OK, here is a Hissho, huge, impossible, 8 empire map, saved at turn 0,10,20,30,40,50. Here is my result at each stage:



Turn 10, score 49 (8th place), total pop 8

Turn 20, score 172 (3rd place), total pop 21

Turn 30, score 257 (5th), pop 36

Turn 40, score 634 (2nd), pop 49

Turn 50, score 1390 (2nd), pop 61



In turn 34 I did my first ground attack with 7 destroyers. In turn 50 (16 turns later) the fleet was up to 42 destroyers and I will take the first planet. The *first* planet I will be taking. I request anybody who is interested to help me, to either (or both) start from my turn 0 position (in the zipfile) and save every 10 turns so I can compare; or look at my saves and tell me all the huge opportunities I must be overlooking. Due to forum size limits (100K? really?) I had to put the turn 50 save into another attachment.



In case anybody is interested here is my exact tech order, which is conveniently stored in the save game file:



Isotope Fabrication

Soil Xenobiology

N-Way Fusion Plants

Xenology

Core Mining

Xenobotany

Compact Fusion Reactor

Efficient Shielding <- to start spamming destroyers, around turn 28

Isolation Shields

Pev Scale Accelerators <- for speed

Alternative Armors <- for hardened frames (ship XP)

Particle Scanning

Botanical Scanning <- for infinite supermarkets (happiness)

Unstable Isotope Manipulation

High Energy Magnetics <- starting weapons, lasers

Arid Epigenetics

Sustainability <- needed some desert planets for growth

Relativistic Economics

Improved Fleet Management <- fleet size

Planetary Landscaping <- on my way to colonial rights, had to stop for weapons

Integrated Structures

Specialized Isotopes

Fusion Batteries <- more weapons

Applied Casimir Effect

Baryonic Shielding

HE Batteries <- now starting cruiser builds
huge-imposs-8-davea.zip
hi8-t50.zip

Without patches that fix:



#1 Infinite pop

#2 Infinite resources [industry>dustbug]

#3 Full offence Destroyer spam





This isn't really worth it.



Even if people play it straight, the easiest military victory on a medium / hard map is destroyer spam, and the map is small enough to do it by turn 75 or so.