Yeah we know



This thread went a little off topic

Well I can't really compare well as they are in two completely different environments.

Zenicetus wrote:
I think there are a few features that make ES a space 4X compared to a terrestrial/historical game:



... the factions you deal with in a sci-fi game have non-human motives and personalities (or at least, they should!). It remains to be seen how developed that will be in this game... how "alien" the aliens actually are, as you deal with them. But at least the potential is there. ...

I really hope that the aliens in ES will feel different to play. I can only recommend that the specialities of the different factions will be emphasized even further. I mean that the cravers could for example have an additional "craving" mechanic, or the Horatio could really be able to just clone the galaxy full of themselves.

We have to remember, the game is still only in alpha, so there are a lot of changes possible between now and launch. Beta still looks to be a couple months away, so we can't rush to conclusions.



Also every 4X game will have basically the same setup. As soon as I started playing this, I just thought about Total War. It even reminded me of a small text based strategy game Astro Empires the way planet management was. The point is, no game is going to be completely original anymore. Basically everything that could have possibly been original was already created. Games will feel like other games all the time. It's all about presentation and how the game demonstrates their use of the certain aspects that make it great.

I just think this game is gorgeous. Civ could look nice, but I'm a sucker for the space genre

So, I would say the answer to your question is this:



You can fly around the stars on a galactic scale colonizing systems and terraforming planets while dealing with pretty interesting and somewhat unique alien races. You get to customize your ship loadouts, and will eventually be able to create your own custom alien or human factions.



Pretty sure you can not do any of that on Civ games. In fact, I know you can not, as I have played 3-5 extensively.



I do dream of a day where we start at the dawn of man (or alien, as it were) and struggle to control your own planet and advance through the ages just like Civ until you defeat your enemies and continue on to achieve space travel. Then, it switches to a similar mode like Endless space, where you colonize inter-system planets at first and develop the tech to intergalactic travel. Then you are able to colonize other systems, and meet other alien races, and vie for control of the galaxy. I actually had this idea before endless space, and my idea for the post-civ game was similar.

eobet wrote:
I think you misinterpreted my entire point.



The point is:



What makes sci-fi sci-fi?

Existence of sci-fi attributes, including attributes you consider to be skin-deep.



Your point is wrong. "Good use of the setting" doesn't equal "using elements that cannot be translated into another setting". Good use of the setting is roughly equal to "only using the elements that don't contradict the setting".

And my question was, what's unique in this game's space setting that can't be recreated in a similar game which doesn't use a space setting (what can't you rename or re-skin and still achieve the same effect)?

Warp jumps?

Uncommon routing model?

Society principles not seen in human history?



I'd look for more, but I don't see a point.



Besides, the very fact that the setting used in this game is the space setting, cannot be recreated in a game that doesn't use a space setting.

If it looks different it is different - at the very least it's different in the way it looks.

SomethingBlue wrote:
So, I would say the answer to your question is this:



You can fly around the stars on a galactic scale colonizing systems and terraforming planets while dealing with pretty interesting and somewhat unique alien races. You get to customize your ship loadouts, and will eventually be able to create your own custom alien or human factions.



Pretty sure you can not do any of that on Civ games. In fact, I know you can not, as I have played 3-5 extensively.



I do dream of a day where we start at the dawn of man (or alien, as it were) and struggle to control your own planet and advance through the ages just like Civ until you defeat your enemies and continue on to achieve space travel. Then, it switches to a similar mode like Endless space, where you colonize inter-system planets at first and develop the tech to intergalactic travel. Then you are able to colonize other systems, and meet other alien races, and vie for control of the galaxy. I actually had this idea before endless space, and my idea for the post-civ game was similar.

Spore, kinda did this but it wasn't strategic enough it was a fun game but was mostly targeted for casual gamers not people that like hardcore strategy.

First of all, let's not flame the poor guy.



I think his question merits a proper response, and welcome to the 4x space strategy genre. Because we all know that his genre needs new players like him.



As others have mentioned, Civilization was the standard setter for strategy games, regardless if it did not take place in space. The thing is the term "4x" which means eXplore, eXpand, eXploit, eXterminate, was coined by one of the producers of Master of Orion. So in a strict sense of the definition, Civilization is a 4x game. However the term was coined for a space strategy game.



I think 4x is not entirely accurate, but instead when it comes to space strategy games they go beyond that. This is the reason for Master of Orion's success. The biggest difference being the custom unit designs, and tactical turn based combat. Civilization still has primitive combat, although hexes were an improvement in 5, and no unit customization whatsoever.



So that is one of the differences with ES over Civilization, and if you skinned Civilization over to space you would have units that you can unlock. This is what I do not particularly like about Armada 2526, or any other space strategy games.



So going forward, I think game the challenge to game devs is to incorporate all of the successful features of Master of Orion I + II, and then take it further. For instance a research system that replicates real life, where accidental discoveries lead to unintended technologies. Tactical combat that does not get tedious in the end game where you have hundreds of units, and start to take forever.

If you want a simple way to compare Civ 4 to ES, you can look at Civ 4 BtS Final Frontier. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqGfeTqNWA0

This really is a skinned out "Civ in Space", and while both are fun in their own respects, you'll find ES gives a better and more true sci-fi experience. True, both have the same ideas of technology trees, controlling systems with specific building on individual planets, and having space fleets, but the character of ES is what gives it the edge. ES' UI, use of unique non-human races and society (thank you Red-XIII), intensely improved graphics and visual design direction, and deeper battle strategies (thank you KyleRees) gives it an engrossing tone, making the new player as curious as the Sophons to learn more about this universe and how you can manipulate it as the United Empire does. So I suppose in a way, it takes the overall organizational aspects of Final Frontier (Civ) and puts it in a world with the same love and care to the fantastic fluff as in EVE. But even better than EVE, it's you deciding what the final game will be flavored like from ES' Games2Gether and the in game customization offered for ship design. Increased creativity is what ES beats Civ down with.

Legionnaire727 wrote:
If you want a simple way to compare Civ 4 to ES, you can look at Civ 4 BtS Final Frontier. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqGfeTqNWA0

Holy crap, that is beautiful! That is much more than I hoped to see when I started this discussion. Absolutely brilliant. Thank you for that!

What is the other way around?

Why is not this the good game? And you make this out of an western?

Again, I'm sorry for all the people who think I'm complaining about something. I'm not. I'm not even comparing them.



I'm just trying to drill down to its core and find what features are unique.

I still think I wasn't clear enough.



I'm not trying to blame this game, accuse it or anything of that kind.



What I'm trying to drill down into is what unique things this space setting offers which can't be translated into another scenario.



I'm not commenting on story at all, but rather pure gameplay mechanics.



It's so abstract that I have not played this game enough to be able to formulate an example, but I will be sure to return to this thread when I do!

....... I tore it a little bit further off topic but still contributed! woo! Eobet you've never seen Final Frontier before? Beyond the Sword came with multitudes of mods like that if you're looking for other themes. One that stand out is this unique type of sci-fi/horror RPG Civ game, it's very odd.

Legionnaire727 wrote:
If you want a simple way to compare Civ 4 to ES, you can look at Civ 4 BtS Final Frontier. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqGfeTqNWA0

This really is a skinned out "Civ in Space", and while both are fun in their own respects, you'll find ES gives a better and more true sci-fi experience. True, both have the same ideas of technology trees, controlling systems with specific building on individual planets, and having space fleets, but the character of ES is what gives it the edge. ES' UI, use of unique non-human races and society (thank you Red-XIII), intensely improved graphics and visual design direction, and deeper battle strategies (thank you KyleRees) gives it an engrossing tone, making the new player as curious as the Sophons to learn more about this universe and how you can manipulate it as the United Empire does. So I suppose in a way, it takes the overall organizational aspects of Final Frontier (Civ) and puts it in a world with the same love and care to the fantastic fluff as in EVE. But even better than EVE, it's you deciding what the final game will be flavored like from ES' Games2Gether and the in game customization offered for ship design. Increased creativity is what ES beats Civ down with.

Hold on a sec, I have Civ IV complete edition with beyond the sword, and have never even heard of Final Frontier. It come included? Gonna have to Install 4 on my new cp then to check it out.



In fact, I knew nothing about those scenerios... how did I miss this.

stevenmc409 wrote:
Spore, kinda did this but it wasn't strategic enough it was a fun game but was mostly targeted for casual gamers not people that like hardcore strategy.

Spore was great, but very very VERY basic. But is it too much to ask for the Endless Space galaxy to be that big?

I think this is not really a game design discussion, anymore. Moving it to Endless space general to avoid cluttering.

To the basic question of the thread... Here is my answer, Fly a spaceship.

Well if you're going to compare CIV5 to ES I'd say that the biggest difference is that the AI in ES is capable of launching a coherant invasion into your empire and doesn't require odds well in excess of 10:1 to be anything more than a minor nusiance.

@eobet I haven't turned on the game yet... but I'm guessing that you get to blow up stars like in other space 4X games? Anyone?