Horatio Haters are common, but also those who love playing as them. Cloning abilities alone make for powerhouse systems, and powerhouse fleets. The threat they pose and how quickly they can become a threat, are the main reasoning for the hating...

Do you wanna sit through 9000 turn games? Then the FTL is fine.

I am amused that people debates things like cloning but dont seem to worry about faster then light travel

SIFI loves that trope: Cloning Blues



And cloning planets is very unlike cloning animals.

Solardream wrote:
Glad you asked, much of the info is so defused it's hard to coalate; But here's a link to an older site that has more links to common questions: http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/cloning.shtml



Needless to say sci-fi forgets this to make room for story, except Star Trek: TNG, in an episode where Doctor Pulaski and Cdr Riker are cloned without their permission because of a cloned societies need for fresh infusions of DNA.



Also today people clone plants (dodgy weed included). Most can keep cloning from a 'mother/base' for several years, but eventually they do degrade. So there's a RL basis for all of this.

Maybe I am blind, but I saw nothing in there that would prevent perpetual cloning by a sufficiently advanced race. We are talking about a race that understands dna to such an extent that we can willfully alter the dna of a living individual to induce precise physical changes (remember, Horatio was human). Any mutations and degradation that occurred could easily be corrected given that level of control, and you would also be able to electronically store the original sequence to compare against all new reproductions in order to make sure it matched.

Mufasa wrote:
Why do people not like horatio?



Answer: They look weird



That's about it

why do people hate weirdos that act in ways that stir up natural sense of dislike?



the way somebody acts and looks and well theres a rl basis for this too believe it or not... lol

The Horatio specialties amplify any existing strengths or weaknesses of their position. When they are strong, they're really strong...and when they suck, their abilities are absolutely useless and provide no help at all.

Efyian wrote:
I'd be interested to see what you think

Oh 1 more advantage I forgot to list (which is implied in Milaha's post)

- you can disband and rehire heroes at will (via cloning). Need more admirals? Get rid of some cloned administrators and clone your current admirals!

So it's easy to run 4 admins, 1 admiral during peacetime, and then switch that into 1 admin, 4 admirals at war.

That's pretty cool, believe it or not I didn't know that because I've never played as Horatio. I usually only fight them and their sick doubles! haha I have to give the cloning a try in my next game!

Why do people not like horatio?



Answer: They look weird



That's about it

who cares really? we all know people would eventually get sick of a bunch of gay,weird looking male clones that look the same anyways. now if you were to clone a bunch of voluntupous female clones, thats an entirely different story. suppose an ambitious powerful female get her hands on Endless cloning tech with a magnomaniac ego to boot. she could look a lot better, a lot less weird, and get a much better fanbase than pathethic horatio.

Milaha wrote:
Is this based on actual science? As far as I am aware assuming you have sufficiently advanced technology there is no reason why an infinite number of clones could be created from a single seed. Sci-Fi loves to use the dying ancient race of clones trope, but I do not believe it is based in any kind of solid science.

Glad you asked, much of the info is so defused it's hard to coalate; But here's a link to an older site that has more links to common questions: http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/cloning.shtml



Needless to say sci-fi forgets this to make room for story, except Star Trek: TNG, in an episode where Doctor Pulaski and Cdr Riker are cloned without their permission because of a cloned societies need for fresh infusions of DNA.



Also today people clone plants (dodgy weed included). Most can keep cloning from a 'mother/base' for several years, but eventually they do degrade. So there's a RL basis for all of this.

actually Igncom1.

What I meant was in general, a game is determined before turn 100 (the exception might be huge maps, but I doubt that). The game might stretch on beyond that of course, but it's generally mop-up at that point.

Thus, perfect forecasting to bump your hero count from 5 to 11 is not a tech that is reached to decide the game.



Well, maybe in highly skilled MP games, that would not be the case. But I've yet to see that occur



n18991c:

I'd be interested to see what you think

Oh 1 more advantage I forgot to list (which is implied in Milaha's post)

- you can disband and rehire heroes at will (via cloning). Need more admirals? Get rid of some cloned administrators and clone your current admirals!

So it's easy to run 4 admins, 1 admiral during peacetime, and then switch that into 1 admin, 4 admirals at war.

Are not heroes the deciding factor in a game? If you think its decided by turn 100 then your mistaken, if i was to play against people then i would quickly find myself attacked by superior Hero fleets who can use their ability's to even outright avoid my ships.



Horatio growth can easily account for the possible lack of a admin hero, enabling new worlds to spring forth like the bleedin plague, early game their ships may be more expensive but when commanded by heroes can easily overwhelm your forces (One game i even managed to out spam the cravers), and starting with a hero that has melee can easily topple your new world and bring your new empire down around you.



They grow population faster then a Craver world (Most of the time) and can easily get large enough to extract enough resources to equal your admin hero, they are very effective with either tall or wide empires.

Efyian wrote:


Conclusion

First, by the time you actually reach perfect forecasting (which will increase your hero count by 6, for 11), the game should already have been decided. That tech is way too high up the tech tree to get to before turn 100 or so (because other critical techs like war techs and increased productivity from systems are necessary).

Second, the hero bonus is surprisingly powerful. Other factions can only hire the heroes they get based on luck of the draw (generally 1 administrator, 1 fleet commander, and 1 garbage hero), and will be stuck with those 3 until turn 100 or so, when they can get the tech to get up to 5. Thus, you have a huge hero advantage generally.



So overall, for regular factions, Horatio is quite good.

However, with custom factions, the Horatio affinity doesn't have the synergy that you can get with other affinities (like a blockade runner-amoeba or a pure war focused with cheap powerful ships craver/hissho).

The first is just ridiculously overpowered on larger maps at this time. And the latter is nasty as they can attack fast, and their FIDS bonus would equal your administrator hero production bonus (effectively). Combined with the cheaper, more powerful ships and you're in trouble.

Interesting summary and results, Efyian, I'll have to try that out myself when I have time and put your conclusion to the test!

Milaha wrote:
I actually strongly beg to differ. You realize the Horatio will have a cap of 5 within the first 30 turns, and a cap of 11 at end game right? (most non-horatio players don't) That plus the ability to quickly switch between a full economic set and a full fleet set makes them very powerful and versatile. They have a bit higher skill requirement, since you need to know how and where to ply the strengths of heroes, but heroes are incredibly potent, and having both the flexibility and extra numbers in that area is very powerful if exploited properly.

Ok I actually played an Endless game with a custom Horatio faction. I'll change my opinion Milaha



Advantages

- Futuristic Game Theory (to raise hero cap to 5) is at tier 3 - easily accessible in the first 30 turns, as you said.

- Ability to clone heroes makes it really easy to have ideal hero combinations. For example, 3 administrators and 2 fleet commanders (with hyper-driven to rotate around for fleet command).

- Cloning also clones all abilities. So you can level up a fleet commander to 10, and clone him and get a 2nd lvl 10 fleet commander.



Disadvantages

- Starting planet is a crappy Arid planet.



Conclusion

First, by the time you actually reach perfect forecasting (which will increase your hero count by 6, for 11), the game should already have been decided. That tech is way too high up the tech tree to get to before turn 100 or so (because other critical techs like war techs and increased productivity from systems are necessary).

Second, the hero bonus is surprisingly powerful. Other factions can only hire the heroes they get based on luck of the draw (generally 1 administrator, 1 fleet commander, and 1 garbage hero), and will be stuck with those 3 until turn 100 or so, when they can get the tech to get up to 5. Thus, you have a huge hero advantage generally.



So overall, for regular factions, Horatio is quite good.

However, with custom factions, the Horatio affinity doesn't have the synergy that you can get with other affinities (like a blockade runner-amoeba or a pure war focused with cheap powerful ships craver/hissho).

The first is just ridiculously overpowered on larger maps at this time. And the latter is nasty as they can attack fast, and their FIDS bonus would equal your administrator hero production bonus (effectively). Combined with the cheaper, more powerful ships and you're in trouble.

Flaviusx wrote:
This isn't a Horatio problem. It's an everybody problem. I will restart any game with any faction that doesn't come with an admin hero to start with, period. Admin heroes are simply too important regardless of who you play. No admin hero = reroll.

but its much worse as horatio, cuz what you do...is clone heroes. others have other advantages.

Valazzar wrote:
The problem with horatio, is that its a game of chance if they are good or not.

If they get shitty heroes to start with, ie...no administrator, then they suck.

I dont like that.

This isn't a Horatio problem. It's an everybody problem. I will restart any game with any faction that doesn't come with an admin hero to start with, period. Admin heroes are simply too important regardless of who you play. No admin hero = reroll.

Igncom1 wrote:
How about Hissho early game military growth? Or Bushido growth when making an opponent shrink?



Admirals aren't only late game, early on they can easily speed up fleets, or give penalty's to enemy accuracy.

but when you are horatio.... you dont have bushido bonus.

That's just gender stereotyping.



....And how is Horatio gay?

A species with only one gender is by defintion asexual. Most plants and all single cell organism plus certain earthworms are capable of reproducing entirely by a single individual.