ENDLESS™ Space is a turn-based 4X strategy game, covering the space colonization age in the ENDLESS™ Universe. You control every aspect of your civilization as you strive for galactic dominion.
My problem with espionnage is quite simple... if you want to implement it in a game, you need to do it right and it costs lots of resources to get it right. Sure you can do it like MOO, where it is more or less simply a budget thing but it doesn't really add much flavor to the game.
And if you add layers of complexity, then you can be driven to micro-management.
For me, more add-on stuff as core thingie, at least for the time being.
SABA wrote: Hmm, really can't say I can vote for any of these options. I do think espionage could be an interesting thing. Perhaps I don't understand fully what the options encompass.
I was thinking that perhaps you could hire spy's that are either adept with espionage or counter espionage and pay an upkeep on them in a similar way you obtain heroes. But perhaps heroes will already fill this role, I don't know.
and that would qualify as option #4 'Spy Units' no?
Hmm, really can't say I can vote for any of these options. I do think espionage could be an interesting thing. Perhaps I don't understand fully what the options encompass.
I was thinking that perhaps you could hire spy's that are either adept with espionage or counter espionage and pay an upkeep on them in a similar way you obtain heroes. But perhaps heroes will already fill this role, I don't know.
The espionage should not have to be to complicated. It is not necessary that you say to every spy, what he should do. But it could be nice if you can say: "Try to kill a leader" or "Try to sabotage some starbases" or "Try to steal some technology".
Espionage needs to be in the game.A centralized control panel with intel,counter intel and special ops done by a slider is the best option in my view and requiring little micromanaging to work.
maceman wrote: I was just imagining the opposite of cloaked ships...
... what if a tiny ship could project a fleet of transponders... that wasn't really there upon closing to visual range.
yes you can just call me a sneaky bastahd. Now witness the firepower of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL battle station!
Good idea, but I'd like to combine cloaked ships (by module extension through research) with special drones that form fake ships. Have a fleet of transporters on one flank, easy targets your enemies eagerly pursue, to find a whole fleet of military ships uncloaking right behind them and nothing but cheap drones in the front.
Yes, I LIKE nasty surprises. But I don't really think this is "espionage", but general combat nastyness.
If it was real time empire management I would agree with you but since ts turn based t shouldn't be a problem, but if it poses a problem to some people than they could always add options that limit or disable it all together.
Sharidann wrote: It is interesting, the main problem I see with it, is that it adds lots of micromanaging... perhaps too much for a 4X game.
Ahh and for the record, I would like to see espionage too.
Okim wrote: Pax Imperia had a nice espionage system with various options from stealing money and gathering system info to funding rebellions and blowing ships. It was done via a set of sliders, a simple choice of what you can do and a small estimate timer. Success depended on your Intelligence points vs your enemy`s IP. IP were generated by colonies and boosted by various buildings. You could also adjust how many funds you want to spend on spies.
A system like that would be sufficient for ES. Also it could be done like in Space Empires 4 with unlockable via research espionage missions and more flexible system for targeting specific known objects (blow a specific ship, terrorise a specific known colony, steal techs from a certain tech-branch etc.).
Espionage should be simple enough to handle multiple spying options and technics, but I would make the player choose in the early game stages if he wants to have that option threw developments in the tech tree. Developing espionage tech within defense or attack branches, dus having defensive espionage or attack espionage. Defensive would be gathering information about ship deployment, number of ships, fleets, tech level, attacking force, heroes xp-s, estimeted time of attack, etc. Attack espionge would have information about system defenses terran and orbital, bribing defense stations( or disabeling them), reporting if political extreme fractions are active ( if they are smuggle weapons to fractions for riots during your invasion) etc...
The player could not have both espionage techs active (defense, attack) , making the choise in the early game stage for one of two, or disabeling them later( loosing tech developed for those perpuses, so theres no choise but to start developing espioange tech and units from the begining)
Pax Imperia had a nice espionage system with various options from stealing money and gathering system info to funding rebellions and blowing ships. It was done via a set of sliders, a simple choice of what you can do and a small estimate timer. Success depended on your Intelligence points vs your enemy`s IP. IP were generated by colonies and boosted by various buildings. You could also adjust how many funds you want to spend on spies.
A system like that would be sufficient for ES. Also it could be done like in Space Empires 4 with unlockable via research espionage missions and more flexible system for targeting specific known objects (blow a specific ship, terrorise a specific known colony, steal techs from a certain tech-branch etc.).
As I said above... it must be simple but have an impact that is easily viewable and understandable.
A slider system that devide your resources that goes into security/espionage, then another slider system where you decide how much effort goes against each opposing empire in the different categories such as Counter Espionage, Espionage and Sabotage. The rest should be handled by the AI and the results should be easily viewable somehow.
The effect could be a -X% in production in the 10 largest worlds or -X% research penalty for Sabotage. These effects are easy to understand and now I have to decide if I want to put more resources into counter espionage or live with these penalties.
Having espionage do certain event driven effects is very tedious and hard to grasp the effect of, not to mention the information overload in huge maps you might end up with.
I'm content with it being another resource that I just have to handle and take care of, a resource that is also modified by the size of my empire, government type, trade relations and race bonuses etc...
I know ST said it wouldn't be implemented at this time... but as it's a big part of big strat gaming for me I figured I would get the perspective of its perceived importance to empire building for the amped gaming community.
I can think of a number of examples of good espionage in games which work in very different ways. Obviously this is closer to a Total War scale than a Thief/Metal Gear Solid sneakiness. That being said I see incredible potential for espionage to enrich the endless galaxy.
Heroes - A Hero is an individual, no? Why not a Hero spymaster? Cloaking a ship in combat is simply a one-off tactic easily countered. Using misdirection and disguising fleet tactics on multiple fronts takes an agile thinker (Ruse anyone?).
Diplomats - Awareness of troop/fleet movements, strengths and tech (fog of war), Hero locations and abilities (for a surgical strike, Ha!)
Industrial espionage - stealing tech, sabotaging development and preventing said bad thingys
Conspiracy discovery/instigation - "X is preparing to murder your (governor, admiral, wife...), how should we deal with him?" (moral dilemmas)
Incite rebellion - rabble rousing is always a good way to force a war-monger back home
Counter Terrorism - (Just so I can have a Hero Jack Bauer)
'Planting' agents - after 4 seasons of BSG how can we NOT consider planting moles? 7 Kingdoms style
Assassination - TW Shogun Geishas. loved their work. (need I mention Grace Park?)
Diplomats - bribery of officials, government secrets, creating conflict of interest, blah blah
These effects don't have to be from individuals but could be caused by special ships, robot droids, computer viruses, etc etc. The tool is not so important as the result
I could put a simplified version of this up for a poll but I thought I'd see if folks thought it was worth thinking about first.
I don't like the idea of have some sort of "spy ships". I think spying should maybe have a few options such as simple intelligence gathering, tech stealing, and sabotage(destroying or shutting down factories, ships, etc.). some way to attempt to throw a wrench in the gears of the empires you are at war with. I certainly don't think it should be overly complicated, but often times it is so oversimplified that its kinda useless. you certainly need a little bit of control, maybe choosing whether or not to steal tech, or conduct sabotage is enough.
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Some also enjoy a subtler way than just KKND in each and every game. I mean lets face it. If all armed forces on the planet were mobilised for a war (without usage of nuclear or bioweapons) the world economy would crash and burn in no time. Hence there is a bigger need to control the information and even more so for a intergalactic empire. If we are having problems with just 6-7 billion ppl... what will it be like for 30-40 times that populace for a small galactic empire.
My feeling is it isn't necessary to make a game. or even to make a game good.
but I have won too many games against juggernaut aggressors with a simple sleight-of-hand to not appreciate more subtle strategic/tactical choices.
Look at the world around us... the control of the information that reaches the populace... the exchange of technology (with or w/o scruples)... axes of evil... know whats going on behind closed government walls... perceived injustice vs. conceived justice...
why would everyone in an alternate intergalactic future suddenly become all straight up and honorable and insist on fighting in front of the saloon at high noon while the robot locals watch?
there shouldn't be micro management I agree... but shouldn't there be a means/reason to send out sensors, find the rebel bases and steal the death star plans!? (so to speak)
ok i'll put it up for a vote as no majority opinion i can discern.
As long as you don't have to do much more than put resources into it and direct the effort I'm fine with it.
The effects should be more information about your neighbours and with Cold War style relations you could deal penalties to enemy science, production or some such. I don't like when there are incidents that you have to take notice from. It's enough that I know that I get, say a -4% reduction in science output because X is disrupting me, then I can take action if I think it is fruitful. Either with a diplomatic option, espionage option or simply declare war and be done with it.
vmxa wrote: The list is very long of what I consider flawed spy systems and why do I want to even deal with it?
The short answer: Because we've all seen too many James Bond films to think espionage would be lame.
The long answer: I totally agree with you that many espionage systems are just imbalanced. Hearts of Iron II at least is the only exception I know of, but that's real hardcore strategy, indeed.
The only reason why we probably should care and try to balance an espionage-system is, that I cannot imagine a vote for "have spies?" to be answered with a definite no. Therefore we should try and contribute as good as we can to ascertain that nothing runs overboard and we end up with spies equipped by Q with explosive remote controlled rocket propelled bullet proof briefs. That'd just be plain ridiculous. But we can as well put that to the test and open a poll.
Anyway, I think the key to a balanced spy system is, that it is on the one hand an option to gain an advantage, but on the other side has to be costly enough either indirectly by diplomatic/military repercussions or directly by upkeep and cost per action.
Nosferatiel, I cannot think of any game that has a balanced spy system. Most are too random and in some too involved as Jorgen mention not caring to have. Spying is not what I look at to get my fun from in a strat game. It is learning a tech, getting better stuff and killing the opposition that I enjoy. I think of Pax II, where you just ran some cash on a spy mission till it stole something up to an entire planet. Complex spy stuff ala Space Empires. Annoying spying in Moo2 where I could have the full 64 spies and all the spy boost and a race with a lone planet size 1 that I had let live managed to steal a tech. The list is very long of what I consider flawed spy systems and why do I want to even deal with it?
I don't mind spying or covert options in games as long as it is mainly abstract enough to not drag you down in minutia... I hate when games get down to a personal level in large strategic game such as in 4x space operas.
I know they have characters in the game but they are mostly there to lead and is a more pronounced and nuanced part of the game.
Espionage should mainly be part of diplomacy and be more one of information. Assassination of characters could be one threat as well, but I still would like to keep the player from directing such a feature in detail. Redirecting resources into it should be enough and the result should be more information about whomever you want to spend the resources on and perhaps some damage done in the event of a war.
vmxa wrote: I am glad to hear no spying. Never like it in any game that I had played. I lobbied hard to get Space Empires IV to let us toggle it off. In most iterations you can get too great of a value in return for a small investment.
Isn't that just a matter of balancing?
If e.g. a game allows to get very advanced techs from someone without your side having any of the prerequisites, the tech itself simply shouldn't work. And if it is too easy to spy, then it should be a problem of either including downsides, like diplomatic or even military repercussions for spying, or reducing the chance of succeeding with your espionage actions.
I am glad to hear no spying. Never like it in any game that I had played. I lobbied hard to get Space Empires IV to let us toggle it off. In most iterations you can get too great of a value in return for a small investment.
I agree that espionage is a very nice thing to have. Just my two cents for the particular points:
maceman wrote:
Heroes - A Hero is an individual, no? Why not a Hero spymaster? Cloaking a ship in combat is simply a one-off tactic easily countered. Using misdirection and disguising fleet tactics on multiple fronts takes an agile thinker (Ruse anyone?).
I don't think you actually send your spymaster into war, above all not in a warship. Having some kind of phantom ships by projection technology, special abilities for ships steered by heroes etc. is fine and good, but I don't think it belongs under the point espionage. If you badly want to sabotage sth. that should be limited to deathstar-like objects, colony buildings and production qeues, I think.
I find sabotage in midbattle rather... hard to balance and very hard to manage. Getting a bomb on a ship, ok. Setting it off remotely while the battle rages is just James Bond style nonsense. Why not blow it up in the shipyard, if you're capable of it?
maceman wrote:
Diplomats - Awareness of troop/fleet movements, strengths and tech (fog of war), Hero locations and abilities (for a surgical strike, Ha!)
Industrial espionage - stealing tech, sabotaging development and preventing said bad thingys
Conspiracy discovery/instigation - "X is preparing to murder your (governor, admiral, wife...), how should we deal with him?" (moral dilemmas)
maceman wrote:
Diplomats - bribery of officials, government secrets, creating conflict of interest, blah blah
That basically all belongs together and could be improved by taking into account dipomatic actions like making trade agreements (open borders -> easier access), building embassies (basically having a headquarter right on the homeworld of the enemy) and other general diplomacy. If the enemy restricts you an espionage option by say closing your embassy, it would have severe diplomatic consequences.
maceman wrote:
Incite rebellion - rabble rousing is always a good way to force a war-monger back home
Counter Terrorism - (Just so I can have a Hero Jack Bauer)
'Planting' agents - after 4 seasons of BSG how can we NOT consider planting moles? 7 Kingdoms style
Assassination - TW Shogun Geishas. loved their work. (need I mention Grace Park?)
The list of things to do without diplomatic contact. I'd just add the point "incite terrorism", otherwise there's nothing to counter against. You could also, more neutrally, just call it sabotage.
Another idea would be to try getting double agents instead of "found the traitor, shot him"-stuff.
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