Hmm Frankly I don't know what to think of it.

My problem with espionnage is quite simple... if you want to implement it in a game, you need to do it right and it costs lots of resources to get it right. Sure you can do it like MOO, where it is more or less simply a budget thing but it doesn't really add much flavor to the game.

And if you add layers of complexity, then you can be driven to micro-management.



For me, more add-on stuff as core thingie, at least for the time being.

OK! I was thinking units were ships

SABA wrote:
Hmm, really can't say I can vote for any of these options. I do think espionage could be an interesting thing. Perhaps I don't understand fully what the options encompass.



I was thinking that perhaps you could hire spy's that are either adept with espionage or counter espionage and pay an upkeep on them in a similar way you obtain heroes. But perhaps heroes will already fill this role, I don't know.

and that would qualify as option #4 'Spy Units' no?

Hmm, really can't say I can vote for any of these options. I do think espionage could be an interesting thing. Perhaps I don't understand fully what the options encompass.



I was thinking that perhaps you could hire spy's that are either adept with espionage or counter espionage and pay an upkeep on them in a similar way you obtain heroes. But perhaps heroes will already fill this role, I don't know.

The espionage should not have to be to complicated. It is not necessary that you say to every spy, what he should do. But it could be nice if you can say: "Try to kill a leader" or "Try to sabotage some starbases" or "Try to steal some technology".

Espionage needs to be in the game.A centralized control panel with intel,counter intel and special ops done by a slider is the best option in my view and requiring little micromanaging to work.

Nosferatiel wrote:
Yes, I LIKE nasty surprises. But I don't really think this is "espionage", but general combat nastyness.

Actually you're right. battle usage is a bit too overt to be considered 'espionage'. fine! who is gonna make a general combat nastyness thread?

maceman wrote:
I was just imagining the opposite of cloaked ships...



... what if a tiny ship could project a fleet of transponders... that wasn't really there upon closing to visual range.



yes you can just call me a sneaky bastahd. Now witness the firepower of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL battle station!

Good idea, but I'd like to combine cloaked ships (by module extension through research) with special drones that form fake ships. Have a fleet of transporters on one flank, easy targets your enemies eagerly pursue, to find a whole fleet of military ships uncloaking right behind them and nothing but cheap drones in the front.



Yes, I LIKE nasty surprises. But I don't really think this is "espionage", but general combat nastyness.

If it was real time empire management I would agree with you but since ts turn based t shouldn't be a problem, but if it poses a problem to some people than they could always add options that limit or disable it all together.

Sharidann wrote:
It is interesting, the main problem I see with it, is that it adds lots of micromanaging... perhaps too much for a 4X game.



Ahh and for the record, I would like to see espionage too.

I was just imagining the opposite of cloaked ships...



... what if a tiny ship could project a fleet of transponders... that wasn't really there upon closing to visual range.



yes you can just call me a sneaky bastahd. Now witness the firepower of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL battle station!

Okim wrote:
Pax Imperia had a nice espionage system with various options from stealing money and gathering system info to funding rebellions and blowing ships. It was done via a set of sliders, a simple choice of what you can do and a small estimate timer. Success depended on your Intelligence points vs your enemy`s IP. IP were generated by colonies and boosted by various buildings. You could also adjust how many funds you want to spend on spies.



A system like that would be sufficient for ES. Also it could be done like in Space Empires 4 with unlockable via research espionage missions and more flexible system for targeting specific known objects (blow a specific ship, terrorise a specific known colony, steal techs from a certain tech-branch etc.).

Ill just go ahead and +1 that

Espionage should be simple enough to handle multiple spying options and technics, but I would make the player choose in the early game stages if he wants to have that option threw developments in the tech tree. Developing espionage tech within defense or attack branches, dus having defensive espionage or attack espionage. Defensive would be gathering information about ship deployment, number of ships, fleets, tech level, attacking force, heroes xp-s, estimeted time of attack, etc. Attack espionge would have information about system defenses terran and orbital, bribing defense stations( or disabeling them), reporting if political extreme fractions are active ( if they are smuggle weapons to fractions for riots during your invasion) etc...



The player could not have both espionage techs active (defense, attack) , making the choise in the early game stage for one of two, or disabeling them later( loosing tech developed for those perpuses, so theres no choise but to start developing espioange tech and units from the begining)



Shortly I agree with okim.

Pax Imperia had a nice espionage system with various options from stealing money and gathering system info to funding rebellions and blowing ships. It was done via a set of sliders, a simple choice of what you can do and a small estimate timer. Success depended on your Intelligence points vs your enemy`s IP. IP were generated by colonies and boosted by various buildings. You could also adjust how many funds you want to spend on spies.



A system like that would be sufficient for ES. Also it could be done like in Space Empires 4 with unlockable via research espionage missions and more flexible system for targeting specific known objects (blow a specific ship, terrorise a specific known colony, steal techs from a certain tech-branch etc.).

I voted everyting. just becuse i could.

As I said above... it must be simple but have an impact that is easily viewable and understandable.



A slider system that devide your resources that goes into security/espionage, then another slider system where you decide how much effort goes against each opposing empire in the different categories such as Counter Espionage, Espionage and Sabotage. The rest should be handled by the AI and the results should be easily viewable somehow.



The effect could be a -X% in production in the 10 largest worlds or -X% research penalty for Sabotage. These effects are easy to understand and now I have to decide if I want to put more resources into counter espionage or live with these penalties.



Having espionage do certain event driven effects is very tedious and hard to grasp the effect of, not to mention the information overload in huge maps you might end up with.



I'm content with it being another resource that I just have to handle and take care of, a resource that is also modified by the size of my empire, government type, trade relations and race bonuses etc...

I know ST said it wouldn't be implemented at this time... but as it's a big part of big strat gaming for me I figured I would get the perspective of its perceived importance to empire building for the amped gaming community.



I can think of a number of examples of good espionage in games which work in very different ways. Obviously this is closer to a Total War scale than a Thief/Metal Gear Solid sneakiness. That being said I see incredible potential for espionage to enrich the endless galaxy.

• Heroes - A Hero is an individual, no? Why not a Hero spymaster? Cloaking a ship in combat is simply a one-off tactic easily countered. Using misdirection and disguising fleet tactics on multiple fronts takes an agile thinker (Ruse anyone?).
• Diplomats - Awareness of troop/fleet movements, strengths and tech (fog of war), Hero locations and abilities (for a surgical strike, Ha!)
• Industrial espionage - stealing tech, sabotaging development and preventing said bad thingys
• Conspiracy discovery/instigation - "X is preparing to murder your (governor, admiral, wife...), how should we deal with him?" (moral dilemmas)
• Incite rebellion - rabble rousing is always a good way to force a war-monger back home
• Counter Terrorism - (Just so I can have a Hero Jack Bauer)
• 'Planting' agents - after 4 seasons of BSG how can we NOT consider planting moles? 7 Kingdoms style
• Assassination - TW Shogun Geishas. loved their work. (need I mention Grace Park?)
• Combat uses - lowering shields, power grid failures, tractor beam overrides, assassin/bounty hunter
• Diplomats - bribery of officials, government secrets, creating conflict of interest, blah blah
  
  

These effects don't have to be from individuals but could be caused by special ships, robot droids, computer viruses, etc etc. The tool is not so important as the result



I could put a simplified version of this up for a poll but I thought I'd see if folks thought it was worth thinking about first.

I don't like the idea of have some sort of "spy ships". I think spying should maybe have a few options such as simple intelligence gathering, tech stealing, and sabotage(destroying or shutting down factories, ships, etc.). some way to attempt to throw a wrench in the gears of the empires you are at war with. I certainly don't think it should be overly complicated, but often times it is so oversimplified that its kinda useless. you certainly need a little bit of control, maybe choosing whether or not to steal tech, or conduct sabotage is enough.

Whatever Espionage system that would be usable by the AI effectively, not just by human players.

LOL, you are totally correct Maceman.

Some also enjoy a subtler way than just KKND in each and every game. I mean lets face it. If all armed forces on the planet were mobilised for a war (without usage of nuclear or bioweapons) the world economy would crash and burn in no time. Hence there is a bigger need to control the information and even more so for a intergalactic empire. If we are having problems with just 6-7 billion ppl... what will it be like for 30-40 times that populace for a small galactic empire.

My feeling is it isn't necessary to make a game. or even to make a game good.



but I have won too many games against juggernaut aggressors with a simple sleight-of-hand to not appreciate more subtle strategic/tactical choices.



Look at the world around us... the control of the information that reaches the populace... the exchange of technology (with or w/o scruples)... axes of evil... know whats going on behind closed government walls... perceived injustice vs. conceived justice...



why would everyone in an alternate intergalactic future suddenly become all straight up and honorable and insist on fighting in front of the saloon at high noon while the robot locals watch?



there shouldn't be micro management I agree... but shouldn't there be a means/reason to send out sensors, find the rebel bases and steal the death star plans!? (so to speak)



ok i'll put it up for a vote as no majority opinion i can discern.