As long as you don't have to do much more than put resources into it and direct the effort I'm fine with it.



The effects should be more information about your neighbours and with Cold War style relations you could deal penalties to enemy science, production or some such. I don't like when there are incidents that you have to take notice from. It's enough that I know that I get, say a -4% reduction in science output because X is disrupting me, then I can take action if I think it is fruitful. Either with a diplomatic option, espionage option or simply declare war and be done with it.

vmxa wrote:
The list is very long of what I consider flawed spy systems and why do I want to even deal with it?

The short answer: Because we've all seen too many James Bond films to think espionage would be lame.



The long answer: I totally agree with you that many espionage systems are just imbalanced. Hearts of Iron II at least is the only exception I know of, but that's real hardcore strategy, indeed.

The only reason why we probably should care and try to balance an espionage-system is, that I cannot imagine a vote for "have spies?" to be answered with a definite no. Therefore we should try and contribute as good as we can to ascertain that nothing runs overboard and we end up with spies equipped by Q with explosive remote controlled rocket propelled bullet proof briefs. That'd just be plain ridiculous. But we can as well put that to the test and open a poll.



Anyway, I think the key to a balanced spy system is, that it is on the one hand an option to gain an advantage, but on the other side has to be costly enough either indirectly by diplomatic/military repercussions or directly by upkeep and cost per action.

Nosferatiel, I cannot think of any game that has a balanced spy system. Most are too random and in some too involved as Jorgen mention not caring to have. Spying is not what I look at to get my fun from in a strat game. It is learning a tech, getting better stuff and killing the opposition that I enjoy. I think of Pax II, where you just ran some cash on a spy mission till it stole something up to an entire planet. Complex spy stuff ala Space Empires. Annoying spying in Moo2 where I could have the full 64 spies and all the spy boost and a race with a lone planet size 1 that I had let live managed to steal a tech. The list is very long of what I consider flawed spy systems and why do I want to even deal with it?

I don't mind spying or covert options in games as long as it is mainly abstract enough to not drag you down in minutia... I hate when games get down to a personal level in large strategic game such as in 4x space operas.



I know they have characters in the game but they are mostly there to lead and is a more pronounced and nuanced part of the game.



Espionage should mainly be part of diplomacy and be more one of information. Assassination of characters could be one threat as well, but I still would like to keep the player from directing such a feature in detail. Redirecting resources into it should be enough and the result should be more information about whomever you want to spend the resources on and perhaps some damage done in the event of a war.

vmxa wrote:
I am glad to hear no spying. Never like it in any game that I had played. I lobbied hard to get Space Empires IV to let us toggle it off. In most iterations you can get too great of a value in return for a small investment.

Isn't that just a matter of balancing?

If e.g. a game allows to get very advanced techs from someone without your side having any of the prerequisites, the tech itself simply shouldn't work. And if it is too easy to spy, then it should be a problem of either including downsides, like diplomatic or even military repercussions for spying, or reducing the chance of succeeding with your espionage actions.

I am glad to hear no spying. Never like it in any game that I had played. I lobbied hard to get Space Empires IV to let us toggle it off. In most iterations you can get too great of a value in return for a small investment.

yeah the list is kinda endless...



... why I didn't bother putting up a vote

I agree that espionage is a very nice thing to have. Just my two cents for the particular points:

maceman wrote:

• Heroes - A Hero is an individual, no? Why not a Hero spymaster? Cloaking a ship in combat is simply a one-off tactic easily countered. Using misdirection and disguising fleet tactics on multiple fronts takes an agile thinker (Ruse anyone?).
  
  

maceman wrote:

• Combat uses - lowering shields, power grid failures, tractor beam overrides, assassin/bounty hunter
  
  

I don't think you actually send your spymaster into war, above all not in a warship. Having some kind of phantom ships by projection technology, special abilities for ships steered by heroes etc. is fine and good, but I don't think it belongs under the point espionage. If you badly want to sabotage sth. that should be limited to deathstar-like objects, colony buildings and production qeues, I think.

I find sabotage in midbattle rather... hard to balance and very hard to manage. Getting a bomb on a ship, ok. Setting it off remotely while the battle rages is just James Bond style nonsense. Why not blow it up in the shipyard, if you're capable of it?

maceman wrote:

• Diplomats - Awareness of troop/fleet movements, strengths and tech (fog of war), Hero locations and abilities (for a surgical strike, Ha!)
• Industrial espionage - stealing tech, sabotaging development and preventing said bad thingys
• Conspiracy discovery/instigation - "X is preparing to murder your (governor, admiral, wife...), how should we deal with him?" (moral dilemmas)
  
  

maceman wrote:

• Diplomats - bribery of officials, government secrets, creating conflict of interest, blah blah
  
  

That basically all belongs together and could be improved by taking into account dipomatic actions like making trade agreements (open borders -> easier access), building embassies (basically having a headquarter right on the homeworld of the enemy) and other general diplomacy. If the enemy restricts you an espionage option by say closing your embassy, it would have severe diplomatic consequences.

maceman wrote:

• Incite rebellion - rabble rousing is always a good way to force a war-monger back home
• Counter Terrorism - (Just so I can have a Hero Jack Bauer)
• 'Planting' agents - after 4 seasons of BSG how can we NOT consider planting moles? 7 Kingdoms style
• Assassination - TW Shogun Geishas. loved their work. (need I mention Grace Park?)
  
  

The list of things to do without diplomatic contact. I'd just add the point "incite terrorism", otherwise there's nothing to counter against. You could also, more neutrally, just call it sabotage.

Another idea would be to try getting double agents instead of "found the traitor, shot him"-stuff.

It is interesting, the main problem I see with it, is that it adds lots of micromanaging... perhaps too much for a 4X game.



Ahh and for the record, I would like to see espionage too.