[Discussion] is Endless Space too shallow?

joxang

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 6, 2012, 10:51:38 AM

Three key areas for growth imo:

1) Diplomacy. Wrote a previous thread about ai diplomacy, but would be amazing if Endless Space could be the first game to have a detailed and realistic diplomacy system, where ai is more loyal, doesn't just act and declare war on triggers (such as expansion and military weakness), and doesn't feel like it has always declare war on you.

2) Battle system. Currently amazing looking, and a couple of levels of depth (rock paper scissors in weapon and defence choice, and battle cards) but has sooo much potential for expansion, especially with such a gorgeous engine. Multiple fleets in the same battle, tactics for individual fleets (try to fight at different ranges etc - the battle system takes no account of manouvrability), maybe even stealth and cloaking. Not sure how much is possible in the current design, but would be sad if it remained as simplistic as it is

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3) Planetary invasion. Several threads about this already, but more options needed

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If these three areas get developed properly, I will happily be a slave to the devs for an entire year.

Belho

Prime Founder

Belho

Prime Founder

37 500g2g pts

12 years ago

May 6, 2012, 10:51:36 AM

For now I consider ES to be a very stable and solid base for an amazing 4X game. But the game needs a lot of work to deepen certain areas like diplomacy and combat.

Aerial_ace

Newcomer

Aerial_ace

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 6, 2012, 10:46:16 AM

I personally would like to see many features go more in depth such as Diplomacy and ship customisation/building

Gordon

Newcomer

Gordon

Newcomer

200g2g pts

12 years ago

May 6, 2012, 12:55:41 PM

For an alpha, I think its pretty amazing. But of course, I agree with the points made here. The combat should be focused on more, since it feels like a slideshow.

AngleWyrm

Newcomer

AngleWyrm

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 6, 2012, 10:21:30 AM

Some areas need growing.

For instance, the Trade Routes system has tech in the tech tree, and buildable modules for planets, and heroes have skills in it. But the trade system is simulated. There's no game play. I would like to set up trade routes between planets, and examine what is the most profitable routes to choose.

Aerensiniac

Newcomer

Aerensiniac

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 6, 2012, 10:20:29 AM

DuddBudda wrote:
I myself believe the core mechanics of 4x games are, perhaps uniquely, clean and clear-cut in ES and would be sorry to see the game pressured into feature creep as it counts down to launch

Its impossible for me to comprehend this opinion. It just makes no sense.

dcarnachan

Newcomer

dcarnachan

Newcomer

22 400g2g pts

12 years ago

May 6, 2012, 8:34:36 AM

there are some areas that could be developed but overall i like the simplicity of it all - i actually hope the devs keep it simple(ish) and dont go overboard to requests to add 'complexity'

Loth

Old

Loth

Old

11 300g2g pts

12 years ago

May 6, 2012, 8:30:54 AM

I am only 4 hours in so take it for what it is worth since these things might be already in the game...

I am really liking what I see so far in just an alpha version and I feel the game has a solid foundation. However, the game would benefit of the fine nuances and touches of polish that take it from a good game to an outstanding game.

-While the audio sound tracks are quite good, more random events, space chatter, etc would liven up the mundane rotine parts of the game system mechanics. I enjoy getting those random notes of exploration, we need more stuff like that!

-Dynamic galaxy events that change the map, maybe a star happens to go supernova, black hole gets to close to a system, etc

-More personality in regards to the player- who are you? why are you in power, etc

i am sure a lot of these things will come in time, but I just want to make sure they are not forgotten since the narrative is almost as important as the mechanics in these types of games.

MT4K

Newcomer

MT4K

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 6, 2012, 8:14:56 AM

I agree some areas do need a bit of work, but i as well do like the simple design they have going and would hate to see that be lost. It's probably a hard thing to balance out, but i have faith in Amplitude. They have shown good promise so far.

Aerensiniac

Newcomer

Aerensiniac

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 6, 2012, 8:14:19 AM

Well... you know my favorite quote! "Refer to the link in my signature".

Voyevoda

Newcomer

Voyevoda

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 6, 2012, 8:08:48 AM

I feel that it does need to be grown in some areas, but that's why its an alpha! I'm really looking forward to what they bring to the table in the future!

halflotus

Newcomer

halflotus

Newcomer

9 900g2g pts

12 years ago

May 6, 2012, 6:07:07 PM

They've built a very solid foundation. Next comes the diversifying, tweaking, and tuning. I expect good things.

Meru

Newcomer

Meru

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 6, 2012, 11:11:33 PM

how is the ship design/combat "truly strategic" O_o? and most seem to want a revamp, only 12 for "the system is ok" and while those 12 are entitled to their opinion, its ok to be wrong.

Godeke

Mirror

Godeke

Mirror

22 000g2g pts

12 years ago

May 6, 2012, 11:04:13 PM

I think one of the risks of this early of a preview is that every forum user has a favorite parts of classic games. If *any* forum were to create a game, it would be the most absurd design-by-committee nightmare imaginable. It would have have every bell and whistle ever thought of and likely take an hour per turn. I say that as someone who plays Star Fleet Battles and Federation & Empire board games: two grotesquely bloated and overlong games. (In fact, Star Fleet Battles takes an hour and a *half* per turn with more than two ships on the board).

Thus I keep my hopes that the strong minimalism will be honored and the improvements be improvements in streamlining and adapting rather than bloating and slowing.

With that out of the way, I do like the fact that MOO II "locks" technologies as you advance them. That is actually a rather elegant system that makes races distinct over time. However, I don't think that is applicable here: at least not as far as colonization goes. To lock planets away forever would undermine the simple colony system directly.

I also think the current combat system is good, but I would prefer to lock in my basic tactics before the battle and use the battle resolution to make choices like "priority target" and other decisions that make sense in real time.

Riztro

Red

Fin

Riztro

Red

30 000g2g pts

12 years ago

May 6, 2012, 10:53:43 PM

The current systems are elegant and well put together without the kind of feature bloat that usually slows 4X games down. Are there areas that should be expanded? Sure, more races, heroes, combat cards, planetary anomalies, shiptypes and random events are fine since those are pool items that slot neatly into the design at large. Adding new systems is something I'm not thrilled about however since it's likely to be busywork for no tangible benefit. For instance, the combat system is brilliant at the moment, it's fast and elegant enough that I don't mind playing most combats myself while offering enough choice so that I feel involved. Adding another ten things purely for the sake of having more things to do is like adding sequins to a tailormade suit.

To be perfectly honest the sleekness of the design is what's most attractive about ES at the moment, it's a clear contrast to very busy games such as Distant Worlds or the Horrendeous Sword of the stars 2.

xeper

Newcomer

xeper

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 6, 2012, 10:44:45 PM

-For me especially the shipbuilding and designing could need more options.

-Bigger difference between Races (aside from some stats) you created those cards why not use them for race specific ones

Aerensiniac

Newcomer

Aerensiniac

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 6, 2012, 10:31:51 PM

Sharidann wrote:
And what for?

Well i ask you the same question then.

There are exactly 3 type of weapons and 3 types of defences to counter them. with something like 3-4 support modules to add on other stuff.

Taking a normal situation into account, you will probably research 1, maximally 2 weapons and the same in defences, so you got yourself like 5 or 6 things to design a ship with.

Yes. We indeed have a ship designer. But what for?

I will be blunt.

This is like painting fire stripes over your trabant

Even tho it falls apart above 80Km/h, it still looks like a ferrari.

Having a ship designer with 10 items works the same way. It gives you looks and nothing behind it.

And alas... people wont be forgiving about this after the official release cause its only natural that they will feel cheated and suckered about it.

A ship designer automatically implies that there is something to design, and currently ES offers ~10 items in that area which is (no offense) a joke.

Im just saying.

If you would be buyin that car based on whats promised by the looks, you would hate to find out that it dies once you reach 100Km/h with it.

quastebec

Newcomer

quastebec

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 6, 2012, 9:27:29 PM

i am really shocked i must say, that so many (?) people are in a way content with the current (mostly combat) system, that they sound as if the game is allready a totaly great experience?

I mean, seriously, half of the game is space combat! sending one fleet against the other while pumping endless new ships from your colonies because the availible buildings are build very fast and the only thing you do then is builing ships ...

and now what is this 50% of the game right now? how can anyone possibly enjoy this space combat system for longer than say, 50 battles? the only thing that can happen which can make you stop for 5 seconds and think for a change is, when the enemy fleet composition changes from e.g. laser to kinetic ... then you have to redisign - again a no brainer because you easily now what counters the enemy -, refit and here you go again ... endless battles against paper-enemys with your scissor ships. now that is fun.

and, again, seriously, did anyone think that chosing the buildings for your colonies is in any way chalanging and meaningfull for the game right now? i thought it was not.

Btw. i seem to be the only person who choose option 4 in the pool ... and i don't really understand why no one else did so right now.

PS: as i have said in other threads before, i like the game, it has potential, but it really needs to be taken further, deeper and wider. in its current state, playing more than one time throu is not possible for me i think.

VIPSharidann

Newcomer

VIPSharidann

Newcomer

16 500g2g pts

12 years ago

May 6, 2012, 8:23:49 PM

And what for?

It only makes sense to have more options if they are actually used. Having more options means a total rewrite of - at the very least - combat, to ensure that said new options are taken into account.

As it is, I find the system only in need of fine tuning, as it works.

Now, I agree, we could have more depth in ship construction and in combat modes, but for me it is not something that can just be tweaked, it is something which needs to be rethought entirely, as it brings the game in an entire direction entirely.

The way ship design and battles happen now is truly strategic, micro-management is reduced to a sheer minimum. Wanting to have more options means more micro-management and it is not something I enjoy.

But YMMV, of course.

Aerensiniac wrote:
Im still saying that 10 things to put on your ships, makes the ship designer pretty much obsolete.

We need massive amounts of more stuff to put on the ships. This area of the game desperately calls for more care and love.

Meru

Newcomer

Meru

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 6, 2012, 6:20:47 PM

Aerensiniac wrote:
Im still saying that 10 things to put on your ships, makes the ship designer pretty much obsolete.

We need massive amounts of more stuff to put on the ships. This area of the game desperately calls for more care and love.

yep.

Poll was a good idea, I like the response so far.

Edit: The devs should patch the game so that when you boot it up it offers a link to this poll/perhaps corresponding threads, so we can get more player feedback