Yeah i've jumped ahead with massive tech trading bypassing lower tier techs for the higher tier ones--getting eternal war sounds nice but your losing out. In my current game its turned into a massive 3 way with 8 players, 2 big alliances and the cravers. Guess who is getting rolled up by all factions? the dude with eternal war.

Igncom1 wrote:
Bloody Pirates.



Its not trade because they don't make a profit!

I was going to say hostile distributed Dust intelligences.

I think someone actually put a faction in the faction contest for that, actually...

rickynumber24 wrote:
As an aside, Eternal War combined with Blockade Breakers sounds like something that's hostile and already among you but you just don't know it...

Bloody Pirates.



Its not trade because they don't make a profit!

I'm less sold on optimistic 2... Optimistic 1 is 5 points for +10, but Optimistic 2 costs 9 points. For one more point than that, you can get Naive 1 and 2, which will give you +8 per opponent at peace. Find someone far away, peace them, and enjoy almost the same result. Peace two and you do better. On the other hand, it doesn't mesh well with Eternal War. Now that tech trades have value again, you can just throw some techs and/or strategic resources at your target to get a couple of opponents to peace with you.



As an aside, Eternal War combined with Blockade Breakers sounds like something that's hostile and already among you but you just don't know it...

Would agree that Blockade Breakers is far too powerful for its point cost. The combination with eternal war is not always worth it, but if chosen should not lead to a net bonus in points imo.



Would also agree that you always should pick dust-impaired and sloppy sawbones although the addition of more expensive hero abilities might reduce that notion for dust-impaired.



Another pick which is an absolute must-have is optimistic. It's all about being able to colonize as many planets as possible while keeping your pop at ecstatic. For the 15 points you spend here, you gain an effective +FIDS gain that is hard to beat.



Currently experimenting with pop growth (cloning and growth plan) - seems a must have to me too, so far, especially in combo with optimistic.



I think that the basic problem, which is very hard to solve but easy to reduce, is that global FIDS improvements will always be worth more than specialized bonuses in one area. This is especially true for combat picks which diminish in worth as more research will yield the same effects very quickly - with more longterm gain.

Blockade breaker just gos to show you how trade is not functioning properly--unless you kiss the AI's butt you'll never maintain constant trade routes and you'll never get all potential routes. Every trade upgrade is horribly wasted unless your in MP or have blockade breaker.



If you want a fun combo go amoeba with blockade breaker and some merchant/trade routes upgrades, you'll lose 5 points but you'll gain absurd amounts of trade bonuses off the bat and a corporate hero makes it obscene.



If it was realistic to actually keep trade routes without blockade breaker then it wouldent be so powerful but the truth is you need to bend over backwards to get a minimal return.

Its dust impaired and sloppy sawbones those are basically free points. The second one has some negatives if you lose your heroes a lot, but other than that its just 6 free points. I've never played eternal war but blockade breaker is a game changer.

Igncom1 wrote:
Perhaps the AI should be more cautious around players that are getting ahead, well....even more cautious but not show it like: 'Your cool dude!' (Lets get into an alliance with everyone and call it the "we hate this guy alliance")

I'm not sure about the alliance bit, but the AI certainly hates your guts if you're doing better than they are. Eternal war is free points an a strong customized build because you won't be able to keep the AI happy anyway.

Perhaps the AI should be more cautious around players that are getting ahead, well....even more cautious but not show it like: 'Your cool dude!' (Lets get into an alliance with everyone and call it the "we hate this guy alliance")

steinernein wrote:
So basically, you pick eternal war and get outpaced by everyone doing massive tech trading, reaping superior bonuses from enhanced trade routes , and god forbid they chose something like 'naive' and begin rolling in happiness. Eternal war is great if you're rushing or playing a game that has less than say 4 players (or in any setting that diplomacy is not viable in like.. everyone else picking eternal war) but playing with 7 other players or AI with diverse builds there eternal war is a huge detriment. A lot of the crap is just context sensitive, so I wouldn't say eternal war + whatever is overpowered or unfair by any means. Things like dust impairment warrant looking into .

I suppose I should clarify my endorsement of Eternal War + Blockade Breakers + Merchants 2 by limiting it to games against only the AI. I din that the AI jealously guards its tech, so scouting out their systems opens trade routes that give you a huge advantage, whereas the AI gets nothign from it unless they have Blockade Breakers. I agree that Eternal War is a nasty drawback in multiplayer.

Igncom1 wrote:
As it should be, because without the alliances the cravers would kill you 1 at a time.



One reason we unite to to fight a common foe, at what point in your game did these alliances brake down? (Assuming they did)

I had to manually fight 47 fleets one after another for and hour+ i have yet to start the game up again. At the rate i was going at i'd assume the second i took over my neighbors complete arm and started working on the cravers arm the alliance would have fell apart. The AI is actually alot better then beta and back stabbed me on several occasions that made sense.

So basically, you pick eternal war and get outpaced by everyone doing massive tech trading, reaping superior bonuses from enhanced trade routes , and god forbid they chose something like 'naive' and begin rolling in happiness. Eternal war is great if you're rushing or playing a game that has less than say 4 players (or in any setting that diplomacy is not viable in like.. everyone else picking eternal war) but playing with 7 other players or AI with diverse builds there eternal war is a huge detriment. A lot of the crap is just context sensitive, so I wouldn't say eternal war + whatever is overpowered or unfair by any means. Things like dust impairment warrant looking into .

As it should be, because without the alliances the cravers would kill you 1 at a time.



One reason we unite to to fight a common foe, at what point in your game did these alliances brake down? (Assuming they did)

I'm pretty sure Isolationists shouldn't be selectable with Eternal War. It's basically free points.

Edited the title to make a discussion out of it.

Which one was that again?

Sure it's doable if you play singleplayer, but good luck with Eternal War in MP.



Dust Impaired are free points too for power-gaming.

steinernein wrote:
Explain to me why eternal war with any combination is decent at all again?



Now correct me if I am wrong, but you can't tech trade with eternal war.



Given the advantages of diplomacy in this game I don't really think eternal war is free , it has plenty of hidden costs which makes it overpriced.

If you have no intention of being peaceful for the game, you have no need to not be constantly at war.



And even when at peaceful, the AI nor me has ever traded technology, and there are plenty of perks to simply increase your own research so eternal war is free for anyone who is simply going to take, but not give.

Explain to me why eternal war with any combination is decent at all again?



Now correct me if I am wrong, but you can't tech trade with eternal war.



Given the advantages of diplomacy in this game I don't really think eternal war is free , it has plenty of hidden costs which makes it overpriced.

Whats wrong with power gaming? This isn't some kind of platformer! this is a 4X game and we should not limit a players ability to do this, instead we should make other ones seem just as tempting.

Kreios wrote:
Even without Eternal War, there's no reason to take Isolationists with Blockade Breakers because Isolationist screws you out a ton of trade routes that would otherwise benefit from Blockade Breakers.

Because it saves points and doesn't require you to take any other weakness.



Eternal War by itself is -10 and simply makes you eternally at war and you get no trade income.



Eternal War + Isolationists + Blockade Breakers is still -7 and you do get some trade income. It may not be as broken, overall, as Eternal War + Blockade Breakers + Merchants 2, but I think it's doable.



That said, from the strictest power-gaming perspective I'd guess that Eternal War + Blockade Runners + Merchants 2 is extremely broken.

AlpsStranger wrote:
Because it is *still* strictly superior to just taking Eternal War and is cheaper?

Even without Eternal War, there's no reason to take Isolationists with Blockade Breakers because Isolationist screws you out a ton of trade routes that would otherwise benefit from Blockade Breakers.

Kreios wrote:
Isolationist is not a good combo with Blockade Breakers. If your trade routes will be working without peace, why would you want to reduce them in number?

Because it is *still* strictly superior to just taking Eternal War and is cheaper?

AlpsStranger wrote:
Cool.



I think I'm going to try messing with Isolationist, Eternal War, and Blockade Breakers. It's a more mild version of what you're talking about that weighs in at -7 net.

Isolationist is not a good combo with Blockade Breakers. If your trade routes will be working without peace, why would you want to reduce them in number?

Kreios wrote:
If you think that's nasty, try combining Eternal War with Blockade Breakers, then throw in Merchants 2 for some real shenanigans. I tested it, and it works. I'm probably going to put that net +8 combo on every race until the devs rebalance the race customizer.

Cool.



I think I'm going to try messing with Isolationist, Eternal War, and Blockade Breakers. It's a more mild version of what you're talking about that weighs in at -7 net.

AlpsStranger wrote:
I'm pretty sure Isolationists shouldn't be selectable with Eternal War. It's basically free points.

If you think that's nasty, try combining Eternal War with Blockade Breakers, then throw in Merchants 2 for some real shenanigans. I tested it, and it works. I'm probably going to put that net +8 combo on every race until the devs rebalance the race customizer.