You're indeed correct in that fog of war already exists in the form of military activity not always being visible, but my current game is just another example of me feeling too secure with my knowledge of the galaxy. And, in fact, I actually can see a lot of military activity from other factions despite my not being allied with them.



The general idea is to obscure territory and borders a little more in order to make things more interesting. The key to "enhanced" fog of war would obviously require for



(1) scouts to no longer be affected by open/closed borders i.e. scouts being exempt from them so that they can move about freely and



(2) the trading system not being messed up in the progress.



Regarding the trading system I do believe that trading should only work if one has treaties with the other faction and not automatically, meaning that just beause a scout has visited a certain system trade shouldn't automatically begin. This is not to be confused with private sector trading which should be happening behind the scenes anyway but the profit for which the state or empire incurs via taxes. So official trading between 2 factions in the game should require treaties. No treaties means no DIRECT trade, but because trading IS working between merchants etc privately one would continue to incur profit, so fog of war shrouding systems which are fairly remote would work. Should one, however, HAVE a treaty then one would be able to see the territory and systems even if located far away and trade would work as it does now, no changes necessary.



So in short:

for instances in which one has treaties everything would remain the same. Remote areas would only be obscured if they belong to a faction with which one does not have any treaties whatsoever. Trade would still work in that instance (although declared as private trade rather than direct official empire-empire trade) and one would still profit but differently. And scouts being exempt from open/closed borders would mean they could work again properly.



But then again, perhaps I'm just being crazy and this is just another of those crazy-and-will-never-work ideas of mine!

While we're here talking about system visibility, there is a unique tech (Factory Missions) for the Pilgrims that gives a system improvement (Factories of the Faithful) with "Ability to hide from opponent inspection on system", amongst other bonuses. Anyone know what the function of that ability is?

[CODE] [/CODE]



There are quite a few notes in the games code that seems to indicate that the devs have a similar opinion.

Atlantis_Risen wrote:
I would implement this by having an option in the game setup that allows various levels of galactic visibility.

Good idea, n18's is good too

I would implement this by having an option in the game setup that allows various levels of galactic visibility.

Strudo76 wrote:
Absolutely agree. My comment was in response to you saying that sensors are unnecessary in the game, and that the first thing you do is strip them from your scout ship design. I just pointed out that the do have at least some usage (in fact the passage of mine you quoted has me saying it's of limited advantage in most situations).

In that case please accept my apologies, Strudo76, I must've misread that bit in your post



btw it looks like people would be in favour of some "spice" being added to ES in the form of fog of war and the likes in order to make scouts and sensors etc more usable in the long term.... Or has anyone's opinion changed lately?

n18991c wrote:
Like you said, "in the beginning of the game". The whole point is that scouts and sensors etc should have a lasting use don't you think?

Absolutely agree. My comment was in response to you saying that sensors are unnecessary in the game, and that the first thing you do is strip them from your scout ship design. I just pointed out that the do have at least some usage (in fact the passage of mine you quoted has me saying it's of limited advantage in most situations).

Strudo76 wrote:
Sensor do have a use in the beginning of the game, as any planet covered by a sensor radius will not spawn pirates. If a multiple planets are close enough together, you can use one ship with improved sensors to cover all those planets, rather than risk pirates spawning or using multiple ships. Limited advantage in most situations I grant, but still may be important for games with only a couple of races in a large galaxy, or games using the slower game speed.

Like you said, "in the beginning of the game". The whole point is that scouts and sensors etc should have a lasting use don't you think?

n18991c wrote:
And since explored systems are simply shown on the map, sensors are really really unncessary in the game.

Sensor do have a use in the beginning of the game, as any planet covered by a sensor radius will not spawn pirates. If a multiple planets are close enough together, you can use one ship with improved sensors to cover all those planets, rather than risk pirates spawning or using multiple ships. Limited advantage in most situations I grant, but still may be important for games with only a couple of races in a large galaxy, or games using the slower game speed.

Igncom1 wrote:
[CODE] [/CODE]



There are quite a few notes in the games code that seems to indicate that the devs have a similar opinion.

Interesting find, Admiral. Perhaps it's to do with the Pilgrims thingy Strudo76 mentioned and not actual "cloaking" in the sense of systems graying out after a while etc.?



Perhaps the Devs already have something planned and they just didn't get round to incorporating it yet...syne they could post a hint in this thread....?

C22 wrote:
Unescorted scout ships will get swatted pretty quickly moving through the territory of a faction you're at war/cold war with. While this makes sense, it still places some significant limits on the usefulness of scout ships.

That's right. So, if you really want to make scouting useful, there must be some kind of camouflage technology. I would implement it as a support module. This module would diminish the detection range of fleets and systems by an amount depending on development level. If the detection range drops to zero or below a camouflaged ship could even stay undetected if it's in the same system as enemy ships (or in an enemy system).

Another way would be a tech level comparison of scout and camouflage modules. If the camouflage module has a higher level than the scout module than the camouflaged ship stays undetected regardless of range. A problem would be that systems for itself have no scout module, but the game could assume that every planet system has satellites with scout modules of the highest tech level available to the empire owning this system.



Another issue: i'm PRO expansion/border visibility. And i recognized that one of the zoom levels for the galaxy map is somewhat 'unused'. At the lowest zoom one can see the whole galaxy without any tags, strings, whatever ... at the second level we zoom a little bit but nothing else changes ... at the third level strings and borders and so on appear. I think it would look nice if borders (and only borders, no strings, no system names) of known empires would appear at the second level ... would be a nice panoramic view of expansions.

I agree with Pilgrim : the fog of war is a good idea, but shouldn't be overdone. Fleet (as it is) should of course be obscured. Probably system information too : which means, planets that are colonized or not, population. Of course, you would still be able to guess using the influence aura. But ownership can't be obscured, only for trade routes.



About information travelling, remember that a turn is 1year. I know it's seems very short, in terms of space and everything. But the information should probably move faster than ships. And scouts are not the only one that travel and inform. As said, if the space isn't empty (I like the idea of living space, with lots of ships, particular, merchants, etc) then news will spread. Even without that, a planet, or even a system isn't a fleet. In the infinity of space, it's hard to spot some ships out of nowhere. But a system is in a fixed place, therefore easily observed. We can already observe far away planets, and with the tech ES seems to have, it would be easier even.

Fog of war already exists, and it's about fleets, military power.

Well, I can't look for the details one sees on the map because my savegame(s) with full exploration of the galaxy aren't available anymore since the update to v1.0.25



I remember that it's possible to see changes of ownership/borders, but one can't see enemy fleets or military strength/defense values. So IMHO you need scouts! If you want to see enemy fleets approaching you must have a sentinel in neighbouring systems.



Concerning 'reality': If I have a scout ship at the other end of the galaxy, informations from this ship come to me in real-time ... they travel with infinite speed. Has this something to do with reality? Informations normally should travel with the speed of your FTL capabilties or perhaps a little bit faster if you deploy some kind of 'sub-space-boys' on the way. Well, a game with 'realistic' information flow would IMO not be playable.



So, let's assume infomations travel with infinite speed. As it was already mentioned there is trade in the galaxy ... many private entities travel around and spread infos ... i think such big news like the change of ownership of a system will spread immediately.



Another thing: how can AI empires change their attitude due to the 'expansion' of an opponent if they can't see how much he expanded? The whole calculation of AI empires relies on informations they normally do not have (scores? what's that? they know my gross national product?). This would would have to change, too. But okay, AIs have to be handled in a simplified way.



Conclusion: fog of war is a good thing because it creates suspense. But don't overdo it. To obscure ownerships/borders is too much for my taste. Military strength, fleets, population data and so on have to be obscured of course.

Igncom1 wrote:
Considering the advantage from seeing where every world and system is, I would disagree.

I guess this would really depend on how trade routes work for places you can no longer see. If you could still trade with the systems you can't see you might notice a system(s) changing hands through the loss or gain of trade routes. Or if you can't trade with systems you can no longer see this would be a huge nerf to trade routes/ Ameoba/ Diplomacy playstyles.

C22 wrote:
I like the concept, but wouldn't the movement rules in the game as it is now pose a problem? You'd need peace and open borders in order to make use of the scout ships anyway. Unescorted scout ships will get swatted pretty quickly moving through the territory of a faction you're at war/cold war with. While this makes sense, it still places some significant limits on the usefulness of scout ships.

The movement rules would have to be tweaked in order for scout ships or sensor drones or whatever you feel like sending out to become excempt from the general rule that an open borders treaty or alliance etc is required for ships to enter another faction's space. Besides, the concept of a scout would demand that it's a special type of vessel anyway, going where all the regular ships of the fleet / line cannot move to, so I somehow can't understand why scout ships would be obliged by the same restrictions as the rest...



Regarding the fact that scouts easily get destroyed, perhaps the evade / withdraw card should be tweaked to apply to them more aptly. It should be difficult (but not impossible) to ambush and destroy scouts when they appear in your territory, but it should never be as easy as it currently is - at the moment, chasing down a scout is far from challenging.

ferretersmith wrote:
You cannot see fleets for the entire galaxy only those with sensor range or possibly if they're allies (not sure about that). However, I do agree with changing the ability to see border/system control changes without scouting with the exception of the Ameoba since it would nerf their affinity too hard.

Igncom1 wrote:
Considering the advantage from seeing where every world and system is, I would disagree.

I agree in that seeing every world and system is already a massive strategic advantage for Amoeba and the knowledge alone of where your homeworld is located in relation to the rest of the galaxy allows for a quick assessment as to where the other factions' starting positions are likely located and in which direction you could / should expand and explore...



So I think even if the Amoeba only had the knowledge of where what is located rather than who owns it (although I suppose homeworlds could be shown on the galaxy map as a bonus) it would still make the Amoeba affinity something worthwhile; at least it would for me

ferretersmith wrote:
You cannot see fleets for the entire galaxy only those with sensor range or possibly if they're allies (not sure about that). However, I do agree with changing the ability to see border/system control changes without scouting with the exception of the Ameoba since it would nerf their affinity too hard.

Considering the advantage from seeing where every world and system is, I would disagree.

n18991c wrote:
Hi all, I just wanted to collect your thoughts on the following:



I somehow feel that it's unhelpful to the overall fun factor of the game that one can map, and then maintain oversight of, the entire galaxy. The fact that I can see exactly where each territorial boundary is, where fleets are stationed and in what quantity (approx) somehow is detrimental to the ge because I think the reality shouldn't be that clear - even concerning your allies' territories.



Perhaps there should be a system improvement which recreates a form of fog of war? That way you'd know WHERE a system is and what it's called but not necessarily WHOM it belongs to. This would make scout vessels more important even in the later stages of the game and would bring a certain continuous thrill to game in my opinion. I feel it would be pretty exciting if one wasn't sure of one was taking on a massive empire or a medium-sized or smallish one and scouting would become

a tactical necessity.



Anyone agree that this would be beneficial for the tactical / strategic nature of the game? If not, I'm open for suggestions, ideas etc., let's hear them!



Also, how could one do it? Via an improvement? Or differently?

You cannot see fleets for the entire galaxy only those with sensor range or possibly if they're allies (not sure about that). However, I do agree with changing the ability to see border/system control changes without scouting with the exception of the Ameoba since it would nerf their affinity too hard.

I like the concept, but wouldn't the movement rules in the game as it is now pose a problem? You'd need peace and open borders in order to make use of the scout ships anyway. Unescorted scout ships will get swatted pretty quickly moving through the territory of a faction you're at war/cold war with. While this makes sense, it still places some significant limits on the usefulness of scout ships.

Personnaly, I would be happy to have the choice in the new game options between "fog of war" or not.

On one side, I would love to have a usefull use of scouts all along the game, but I would then suggest to have like a cloak ship module and a special sensor planet improvement to detect scouts.

Because in fact, in the mid/end game, there is quite a lot of fleets everywhere, so it would be very difficult to scout in an enemy territory without being intercepted very soon ! I just think that having a scout discovered in an allied territory could be considered as an offense... which offers nice gameplay developpement.



On the other hand, I like also the way it works now, because it is more strategic, you can always have a jugment of the other empires, and then have a good help to define your diplomatic standings, risks, etc. It makes me feel a little bit like playing a boardgame, and I like that.



So, eventually, having both options would be very nice !

My thought as to why you can see the systems you have been in before is that you have dropped a few probes/sensors ect that relay current info to your empire.

That being said these same sensors/probes could be removed causing you to loose sight of said system.