PANCZASU wrote:
PANCZASU aka Pancake here, joining the fight

Guess what my next video's title is going to be ^_^ Hint: it starts with an S, end with an S, and has 3 words in total.

The man is on board!



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EDIT: Geez I go to school and take midterms and you guys double the G2G on the Petition!!! we just passed 50,000

Why are the Sowers actually Underpowered.



A analysis.



Okay i now try to sum up all my experiences and arguments to convience ppl who maybe are not playing often the Sowers and or are not convienced that they are in a dissadvantage in comparison to the other races or race affinities.



I am trying to be very detailed so that everyone who reads this can say he is deep in the matter.



I spend many hours for that post i hope it will find some appreciation

and iam 100% believing in our fight and the wisdom of the Devs.



If u dont understand something or u have other question to me feel free to ask me anything at anytime i will respond at my earliest convenience.



1. The Affinity

The Sowers affinity gives you:

-50%

and 40% value of the is converted into



Okay lets take a look on that step by step.



1.1 Planetary Exploitation (all Bonuses per X*opulation



Comparison:



Food





Evolved Soils(Science Cost None) +1(Planet) + +1(Terran) + 0 (Ocean/Jungle) + 0 (Tundra/Arid) + 0(Methan)

Alien Grafting(Science Cost 40) +2 (Planet) + +2(Terran) + +1(Ocean/Jungle) + 0 (Tundra/Arid) + 0 (Methan)





Hyper-Scale Farms

+3 (Planet) + +3 (Terran) + +2 (Ocean/Jungle) + +1 (Tundra/Arid) + 0 (Methan)

Planetary Landscaping(Science Cost 680)



Industrie





Colonial Industrial Base (Science Cost None) +1(Planet) + +1(Lava) + 0 (Tundra) + 0 (Jungle) + 0 (Methan)

Geo-Industrial Plants (Science Cost 130) +2(Planet) + +2(Lava) +1(Tundra) + 0 (Jungle) + 0 (Methan)



3D Replication Plants (Science Cost 4000!) +3 (Planet) + +3(Lava) + +2(Tundra) + +2(Jungle) + +1(Methan)





Okay after we took a closer look we come to this conclusion:



1.2 Planets



-Food Exploitation prefer T1 planets the most but also T2 gets an Advantage with the Hyper-Scale Farms.

-The first two Industrie Exploitations completely gives no Bonus to T1 planets at all!

-From the T2 Planets only Tundra gets a benefit...Arid gets no bonus at all.

-Lava as a T3 gets a Bonus but u cant colonise Lava till the Midgame and the approval malus almost negates that Bonus again Tolerant does not help eiter (still Approval +FIDS MALUS)

-T4 Methans got a Bonus from industrie Exploitation but theire approval malus is even worse then Lava and their Technology is even later so same scenario.

-T2 Tundras (not Arids) gets their benefits only with the Geo-Industrial Plants...and the T1 Jungle only with the extrem expensive to research 3D Replication Plants.



- Heavy Isotope Refineries(one of the importanst Buildings for Sowers) gives only a minimal Industrie Bonus on T1 Planets compared to the Bonus which it gives to T2 Planets.

Industrie Exploitation are extremely bad for T1 Planets...Planets which are normaly the *Pearls* of early game this Pearls are no benefit for Sowers at all!



Science cost:



- Industrie Exploitation are in terms of Science way more Expensive Alien Grafting(40 Science) compared to Geo-Industrial Plants (130 Science)

and Hyper-Scale Farms (680 Science) compared to 3D Replication Plants (!!!4000!!! :science



Approval:



-Other races got better and earlier Food Exploitations.

-This Bonuses are cumulative and gives the other races a good and mighty Pop Growth on T1 planets and their food Exploitation

are also early enough and powerfull enough to give also T2(very decent),T3,T4 Planets (decent) population growth.



Cunclusion: -Sume up and add this:

-The Sowers get -50% Food...so the basic (good) food production of the T1 Planets is for Sowers almost Pointless

-BUT they got only weak or very late Industrie Exploitation for T1 Planets...in the End..T1 are absolute useless and Garbage for Sowers!

-BUT the lower Tier Planets are also not very good cause of the approval malus and the almost to nothing basic Food income and the late Technlogy

Industrie Exploitation.



All in all the Sowers got a Population Growth Penalty which is FAR FAR Beyond its looks like at the first look.



Just and theoretical example



10 Food...and 10 Industrie Basic prodcution

U might think a Sower would get.



5 Food and +4 Food from the Industrie... =9 Food So thats alone is a loss of 10%! But that is not almost the reality!



1. Planets with high Basic Food income are (as i explained before) terrible for Industrie Exploitation so u WONT will get enough industrie compensate the food penalty.

2. Planets with Good Industrie...have little or no basic food income at all....and also the industrie compensate are two weak or to late in the Game to can ever produce enough food.



IN THEORY the loss in only 10% in REALITY ITS WAY WAY MORE!

the theoreticaly loss of only 10% is in practise almost impossible.





Also the uselessness of T1 Planets cripples their entire early Game...and i crippled early Game cripples your ENTIRE GAME!





2.0 Sowers Faction-Specific Technologies



The First unbalance is quite obvious:



The Sowers are the ONLY Race with only two Faction-Specific Technologies every other race hase more of them up to a number of 5!



The Second: This Technologies are okay...but not even close to compensate their huge lack.



Lets have a look:



Technology: Science Cost

Planetary Landscaping 680



Effect:

It gives you the Sytem Improvments:



Elegant Networks:



Industrie Costs:200

+30 approval on Star System

+10% food on Ecstatic

+25% ndustry on Ecstatic

+10% dust on Ecstatic

+10% scienceon Ecstatic

-4 Dust on Improvement



Okay this Building is just fine.

BUT...This Bonuses are on Ecstatic...something which u achieve more likely on T1 Planets which are again useless for Sowers. Lower Tier Planets are also not ideal for Sowers and they are even harder to achieve Ecstatic. Well bad for our Sowers Friends -.-



Inorganic Cultivation



Industrie Costs: 300

+3 food on Planets with explored Moon

+3 ndustry on Planets with Moon Temple

-5 Dust on Improvement



Okay...the Food brings you nothing cause of the -50% Penalty of the Affinity...its completely useless.

The Industrie Bonus would be nice...but its per Temple not per Moon...so



50% of all Planets hasent got a MOON!



And from that only 50% remaining Moons the Chance to find a Temple is (depending on the Star of the System):



White, Yellow, Blue 15%

Protostar 20%

Red Supergiant, Double 25%

Red Dwarf, White Dwarf 30%





So this whole Sower specific System Impriovment is in 75% upto 92,5% of ALL cases completely USELESS.



THAT IS JUST ridiculous



Next Sowers Faction-Specific Technologie is



Persistent Bodies Science Costs:

1800



Effect:

You can build the following System Improvments



Extreme Infrastructures Industrie Costs:

360





+3 industry on Arctic

+2 industry on Hydrogen, Helium, Tundra, Barren

+1 industry on Terran, Ocean, Arid

-3 Dust on Improvement



Okay...at first...NO Bonus for *Planets*

Second...the best bonus for Arctics...arctics has no basic Industrie Production at all...its the worst Choice to colonise...this Bonus is just a little helper for them...but it grands no real benefit at all for a sower Player!



Third...+2 industry for Tundra,Hydrogen, Barren

Hydrogen...are as like Arctics a very bad choice for Sowers.

Barren...are bad Planets in every case it wont help much.



Forth: Tundra...+2 industry is the only usefull thing...but your empire doesnt consist out of Tundra planets..so this special Sower Technology and Improvment is also

in 75% of any cases completely useless for you.



Fifth : +1 industry for Terran, Ocean, Arid



WELL NOW WE GET our bonus for T1 Planets....but its to LOW and to LATE...early game is already over it wont help us anymore!





Conclusion: This Buildings needs a HUGE buff to be worth building it...a Industrie Bonus for all Planets and a stronger bonus for T2 are necessary! ATM the special Sower Building is just a big piece of useless Scrap Metal.



Next System Improvment:

AI Labor





-20% Industry cost of improvements on star system Industrie Costs

-7 Dust on improvement 1250





Well this building is just to expensive in terms of Industrie costs following the Endless Space wiki there was a time were the Building costs only 250 for the Sowers.

With costs of 1250 Industrie its to high...in the game phase this benefit from this building would be good you are producing to less industrie to build it in an appropiate time.

And in the game phase were u can build it fast u didnt need it anymore cause almost all building are already buiild.







3.0 Epilog/Solution Suggestions:



Well all in all we have to face the fact that the Problem with the Sowers is much larger then somone might think.

A sligthly Increase of the Industrie to Food Conversion wont solve the Problem at all cause it lies in the game machanics and the actual gameplay.

Something that would work on the Paper dont have to work in practise and the Sowers are best example for this.

So what could be done? here some suggestion:



Approval:



Well the new affinity of the *harmony* should have been part of the sower affinity from the very beginning and now we have the problem that we cant do just the same for the Sowers. But in terms of Approval there has something to be done. They are artificial Terraformers and they should get an reward for colonizing wasteland Worlds that is their Lore.

Maybe they should get approval Bonus for bad planets and no regular bonus from good Planets...but then again...T1 Planets are early game planets which would again give them a penalty which leads my to my next Point the terraforming.



Terraforming:

1.Sowers should/could be able to Terraform bad planets from the very beginning without approval malus...in exchange they could be forced to research T1 Planets

2. CHEAPER (in industrie costs) Terraforming and without the need of ressources for Tundra Terraforming.

3. Worthy Benefits and extra Boni for Terraforming of a Planet in combination with Point 2.



Technologys/System Improvments/Planetary Exploitation



1.Unique Sower Planetary Exploitation which are in one Line with Food Planetary Exploitation of the other races and which are also gives good Bonus on T1 Planets.

2. MORE Sower specific technlogys...more Industrie boosting buildings...improve of the current one and Industrie Bonus in Percentage % not per Population!

3. i dont now just MORE they got only two race specific Technologys pls come on! And they got not a single late Game Technology too! In the late game they lack even more

cause Races can convert with Adaptive Industrial Systems their lots of Food into industrie...which isent not as powerfull for the poor Sowers.



Industrie Conv

Woah! Holy wall of text! I'll link this in the OP so skeptics can jump right to it.



Colonial rights would do the sowers allot of good if they didn't need approval. Since they would be on ecstatic 100% of the time, they would also get the bonuses 100% of the time. I think that would actually make a huge difference.



I think the "Builders" trait is actually pretty dang good as it is, but maybe in the Sower affinity there could be something like that of the UE? Like a 10-20% bonus on 0-50% tax rate (Which could also discourage a Sower player from going 100% taxes if the Approval immunity is added to the Affinity)



Those were just my thoughts. This is a really good job. I can tell you put a lot of time into it.

tl;dr huehuehue



is that their actual bonuses or what you want to see added?

The Point 3.0 Epilog/Solution Suggestions are my suggestion.



everything above are their current Facts/bonuses which i have compared and criticized.



BTW:Igncom1 is already testing atm different Food to Industrie conversion values via Mods.

So we are very enthusiastic and you can look forward for more infos and suggestions.

"-Other races not only got better and earlier Food Exploitation no they also get the approval bonus from the T1 Planets"



T1 planets give 0 approval to everyone.



"Okay this Building is just fine.

BUT...This Bonuses are on Ecstatic...something which u achieve more likely on T1 Planets which are again useless for Sowers. Lower Tier Planets are also not ideal for Sowers and they are even harder to achieve Ecstatic. Well bad for our Sowers Friends -.-"



Works for me, even with lava and gas giant worlds by having a low tax rate, using the industry-dust thing to fund me.



"Inorganic Cultivation"



This is just a buff to a normal improvment, and shouldn't be depended on for a system.



But when a planet does have a moon with a temple, thats +3 per pop on the planet, and that's nice when stacked.



"Extreme Infrastructures Industrie Costs:

360





+3 industry on Arctic

+2 industry on Hydrogen, Helium, Tundra, Barren

+1 industry on Terran, Ocean, Arid

-3 Dust on Improvement"



So no desert, no lava, no methane, no asteroids and no jungle?



This buffs up all of the non-industry worlds, and that's great in my opinion.



"Approval:"



They are still sentient/sapient just like you or me, and frankly I too get pissed on when lava burns my newly build houses.



"2. Early and CHEAPER (in industrie costs) Terraforming and without the need of ressources."



Early tundra terraforming.



"Industrie Conversion:

noticeable Higher Industrie to Dust conversion.

and noticeable higher Industrie to Science conversion."



Trust me, with the mod I made this won't be a problem



"Sower specific symbiosis with the Tolerant Trait:

-Add to the Affinity of the Sower that they are suffering no FIDS penalty from Tolerant Trait 2/2 at all plus an approval bonus for at least T3 and T4 Planets.

-Or adding the Tolerant Trait completely to their Affinity!"



I have never found tolerant to be that bad, with careful colonisation lava worlds can be a good go to option, but I could still tinker with it if you would like?



"Increase Industrie to Food conversion:"



Ehhh.....no, I like the idea that the sowers are a runaway train, thus tanking time to set up, so brute forcing growth seems counter-productive.



"New Bonus:

Add One Industrie per One Population to their Affinity."



Could do that, or possibly a more subtle bonus to a ship module type, tonnage size or something along the lines of we make a lot of crap fast!

Just recently got into this game and I can already see that they are an under powered race. Shame since they quickly became my favorite one.

All right, got my video up and running

I dedicated the first 2 minutes to this thread, should be enough to make some people come here. Although I already noticed at least 3 of my fans on the names list so I may have been too slow with my vid. Oh well, the end result is what matters







As for a possible fix for this race... I'd like to see something that doesn't make them too similar to automatons (these two factions are too similar already and I would love to change that). So instead of buffed industry or ind/food conversion we should go for something a bit more unique. I liked someone's idea to allow Sowers to convert industry into population, it could be enough after buffing some of the Sower-specific tech (and giving them faster 3D replication plants).

Another cool idea would be to make them specialize in the "tolerant" trait. You could do this by:



1) Buffing Sowers' Colonial Base (the free improvement that every system starts with). Make it produce 4 (instead of 2), 4 (instead of 2) and 2 (instead of 0). A very nice way of encouraging Sowers to use their tolerant trait.

2) Making each Sower system start with High-isotope refineries (probably not good enough on its own)

3) Changing the tolerant trait so now Sower can colonize everything without any penalties (risky)

4) Giving them ability to convert industry to food (just like you can convert industry to science or dust). When paired with 3) or 2), it could allow Sowers to colonize high-industry systems early on and use them as their breeding grounds.



Just a few ideas ^_^

ok im on bord

Now everyone share PANCZASU's video with everyone you know who plays Endless Space!

From me too.

sign me up to petition



The issue is -food is way to crippling and their other traits don't help and tolerant sucks/is too expensive



My ideas



They need a completely new affinity



Example



- Sowers do not take the static - from colonising planets (e.g. the -5 -10 -15? can't remember if it went that high)

- 10% of is added to (not a reduction in food output)



Traits



Half the points cost of Tolerant (both levels) (e.g. point cost now 10,5)



Remove

Dust Recyclers, Slow Travellers



Add

Builders (---), Fast Travellers (-), Meticulous analysis (-)



60/60

ThatMG wrote:
sign me up to petition



The issue is -food is way to crippling and their other traits don't help and tolerant sucks/is too expensive



My ideas



They need a completely new affinity



Example



- Sowers do not take the static -happiness from colonising planets (e.g. the -5 -10 -15? can't remember if it went that high)

- 10% of is added to (not a reduction in food output)



Traits



Half the points cost of Tolerant (both levels) (e.g. point cost now 10,5)



Remove

Dust Recyclers, Slow Travellers



Add

Builders (---), Fast Travellers (-), Meticulous analysis (-)



60/60

Looks good except a couple things: I thought there were 65 race points available to a faction. Maybe I'm wrong.

I thought that the sowers had builders 2/2. Again, I might be wrong. If they do have 2/2 I think Optimal Structure would be a good replacement

I think the Affinity should be stronger.



But other than that your ideas are pretty sound!

Stealth_Hawk wrote:
Looks good except a couple things: I thought there were 65 race points available to a faction. Maybe I'm wrong.

I thought that the sowers had builders 2/2. Again, I might be wrong. If they do have 2/2 I think Optimal Structure would be a good replacement

I think the Affinity should be stronger.



But other than that your ideas are pretty sound!

sowers is a 60 trait points race, builders is 2/3 skill, I can see why you may think the affinity is weak however I didn't want them to be too powerful (standard race) and I think that not taking a hit to approval is powerful due to their optimistic (-). In addition the 10% to with builders will stack when you start getting end game (e.g. high food production/jungle spam)



It could be an idea to make them 65/65 and just throw in cloning (-)



but that might be pushing it

The tolerant trait is separate from the affinity.



Suggestions for it as a separate entity?

65/65 is not realy a buff to them i

the lack of additional 5 Points is just the cherry on the cake



Cloning? the Bonus from cloning is de facto NOTHING with their current affinity which u can test by yourself making a a custom test race.





the Tolerant trait

well the Sowers already have a special relationship to the faction traits.

They can not pick Blackthumbs.

They maybe could also get an special relationship to Tolerant (no FIDS penatly lower costs etc)



but i realy think the problem lies more in the affinity then in particular Traits.

I am currently testing a mod that changes the Tolerant trait to: At level 1 -100%, and at level 2 -50%



Leaving food and industry at normal levels due to approval problems.

Ah, I already see my name on the OP



anyways.



And the wall of text on pace 3 says it all lol

Let's make the Sowers as powerful as the Sophons! As a lot of people have already mentioned here, food is crucial for empire development in early games, and well, the production bonuses of the Sowers doesn't compensate for their extremely poor food production.



Let's do this!