If they're going with this whole random card route, they might as well make it like a fullblown card game. Like instead of doing the rock-paper-scissors thing, you draw a certain amount of cards from a "deck" and have to decide the right one to use in a given situation.

this is true, for the multiplayer it does work a little more efficiently than the turn based that was in MoO2. However, it could with some work be converted into a Total War style real time combat, where you have the big turn based galaxy map, and then engaging in combat turns the game into an RTT. I could most certainly live with the card based system if it got worked on a bit. The Doctrine Tree would be a definite boost for sure. MoO2's battles were fairly simple in mechanics, you would engage like you do in ES, and then both sides ships would arrayed in a line formation of sorts on either side of the map, and then one or the other would go first, usually the attacker if I remember correctly. After that, based on a ship's engine it had a certain amount of space it could move, to include turns and facings. After that you had a selection of weapons for each ship, and whether you wanted to fire all available of that type or just a selection, then picked a target, etc... Standard turn based, the tactical depth coming mostly from the ship design and then by your maneuvers.

My memory of combat in MoO 2 consisted almost entirely of outfitting ships completely with as many fast, MIRV, missiles of the most refined tech I had available that I could fit, then launching them all as quickly as possible while running the hell away, because, well, that defeated everything.

stirge_jr wrote:
this is true, for the multiplayer it does work a little more efficiently than the turn based that was in MoO2. However, it could with some work be converted into a Total War style real time combat, where you have the big turn based galaxy map, and then engaging in combat turns the game into an RTT. I could most certainly live with the card based system if it got worked on a bit. The Doctrine Tree would be a definite boost for sure. MoO2's battles were fairly simple in mechanics, you would engage like you do in ES, and then both sides ships would arrayed in a line formation of sorts on either side of the map, and then one or the other would go first, usually the attacker if I remember correctly. After that, based on a ship's engine it had a certain amount of space it could move, to include turns and facings. After that you had a selection of weapons for each ship, and whether you wanted to fire all available of that type or just a selection, then picked a target, etc... Standard turn based, the tactical depth coming mostly from the ship design and then by your maneuvers.

I think that is much too difficult if we want a vibrant multiplayer. It needs to be fun and have depth but also fast and accessible if we want more than a few groups of bitter vets playing the game regularly.

ArrowLance wrote:
I would like to see the combat system blown up a little bit. I think an excellent way to do this would be to increase the options we have during combat. I think two cards should be chosen during combat, one from each of two different categories. Like we already have there should be a systems card, these would perform like the cards we already have do. Second a formation/doctrine card which would dictate targeting/movement/formation.



I'll expand on what I think could be done with this. Allowing a second choice for cards that do something additionally during a combat phase would allow a much deeper combat system. I don't think this is a bad thing because combat is an extremely common and mostly unavoidable part of every game of Endless Space. Cards could make your fleet attempt to target specific ships such as those with the greatest military power, or the lowest resistances. They could have your fleet take a formation to attempt and counter enemy targeting or protect more important or missile boats.



To support this a 5th tech tree could be implemented that would be completely devoted to these cards. The command cap techs could be placed here as well. Perhaps instead of using research points to unlock these combat experience gained would be turned into points to unlock doctrines and military buildings could provide a point income (in this case command cap techs would have to remain accessible by RP).



I understand this is probably a pretty huge change to combat systems and it really is only an idea. But I would love to see some extra depth added to manual control in combat.



Edit: Check out my new thread expanding on some more ideas: /#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13307-expanding-on-combat-doctrine-and-fleet-construction.

Added to Summary list here If you have further ideas and or discussion in this use this link

I'm really not a fan of expanding the tech tree. I enjoy that ship designs, weaponry, and fleet size are all spread out. It makes it more interesting to choose your research direction. And I don't think adding an entire additional specialty tech tree at this point would make much sense.



I wouldn't mind a more complex card system, though.

This sounds like a great way to add depth to the combat system. I really enjoy Endless Space, but I fear that the combat is the one part of the game that is sorely lacking.

Durandal4532 wrote:
I'm really not a fan of expanding the tech tree. I enjoy that ship designs, weaponry, and fleet size are all spread out. It makes it more interesting to choose your research direction. And I don't think adding an entire additional specialty tech tree at this point would make much sense.



I wouldn't mind a more complex card system, though.

Why doesn't it make sense? Combat is an extremely important part of the game and really is the entire focus of relations between players. Even diplomacy is based on combat, all relations are based on violence or the threat of violence in competitive systems.

Definitely support this idea. Concentration of fire only makes sense

i like the idea

A game that did 'military doctrines' quite well was the classic WWII simulator Hearts of Iron II - There were definite doctrines, which gave strength to essentially particular core ship classes, such as a 'mass attack', 'carrier' doctrine, and 'blitzkrieg' doctrine.

I totally agree, because the linear combat is the only thing that I find dissapointing in this game right now.

Agree with idea. Combat seems boring already.

Probably add a doctrine to the already present trees. Either the one with the C3, C4 and that kind of stuff, or to the military tree. Because I don't think there's enough doctrines to justify a new tree.



But Doctrines seems like they would be useful.

hi there



thanks to your link in my message,

I didn't saw this topic.



Well, I agree with the idea of the second card, for more strategy in battle.

I agree with having more different cards.



For making the cards, I though about an in-game creation system. We can build our own ships, so why not having adapted strategy to our ships ?

example... let's take an idea i read here. Put some ship in front of the ennemy, and so other in his back so they are protected.

the card will be something like



X% of damage taken on [transportclassship] are done to [cruiserclassship]

-N% domage done by [Transportship]

Description : The [transportclassship] take cover behind the [cruiserclassship].

letting him take the damage, but avoiding [transportclassship] to fire all it's weapons.

The card builder will simply let you choose who protect who, in this example.



and no. it's not useless. it add strategy. you can equip (in this exemple) the protective ship with only armor,

and have another class of ship, without armor, and only full of kinetic weapon.

so, you have to protect them until phase 3... (kinetic weapon are , normally, fully affectives at phase 3)



so, basically, you already have in your hand all the second cards. But, you can make them in the game only when you have researched the ship class.

This is the base idea, each strategic tactic can be traduced in this way.

another example is the idea of focusing a particular class ship. (so you can focus on the weak or one the one with all the guns)



X% of damage done on [allothersclassships] are done to [cruiserclassship]

Description : Weapons are focusing as much as possible on [Cruiserclassships]





I must admit I'm not fan of your idea of a 5th tech tree.

It makes sense, but I think it would slow down the game too much.

What is there to research in the 5th tree ? Cards ? you want to put there the fleet size inside ? ... and ?

that's not enough to make a full tech tree. furthermore, you can play battles in automatic. sincerelly, I don't do that much battles in manual.

Very good idea, adding much needed strategic depth element to the battles.

stirge_jr wrote:
As I stated in another thread, one thing I'd like to see with the combat is a more diverse tech tree for it, akin to that of Master of Orion 2. The thread I posted went into more detail, but boiled down to basically wanted MoO2 with better graphics and some new tweaks. As it was MoO2 was about as close to a perfect space 4x game as I've ever played. The weapons weren't just Lasers, Bigger Lasers, Even BIGGER Lasers; they actually differed in their function. You had a series of standard effect lasers that just damaged whatever they hit, but then you had tractor beams, graviton beams that shot beams of condensed gravity to destroy the structural integrity of ships but couldn't scratch shields, ion cannons that did no damage but ripped through shields, neutron blasters that went through both and killed the crew, and so on.



I'd really also like to see the ability to retreat to and to capture ships. Stealing enemy ships was one of the coolest features in MoO2, and you could design ships specifically to do that. Equip them with neutron blasters or similar devices to kill the enemy crew, a tractor beam to stop them or further down the line you could get teleporters so they didn't need to be immobilized, and extra troop pods to facilitate the odds of you winning. And then on a separate level you could get new tech for your troops to make them better in general.



I wouldn't mind at all having tactics cards and such, with the ability to research/develop new and fancier maneuvers as you go along. But to be honest, I'd really prefer to have some sort of direct control of the ships. For instance, if you had the wider variety of armaments, I wouldn't want to blanket my whole fleet with an ability that's only useful to half of them. An example in the current system would be if, say, you had 6 ships in your fleet, and 3 of them were focused on kinetic weapons, and 3 were focused on missile weapons. Do I choose an ability that ups the kinetics or the missile damage? I have to pick one, and the other half of the fleet suffers, or at least gains no benefit. I'd personally prefer to have some sort of direct control, like being able to tell my missile laden ships to aim for their big vessels and to have my lasers target the smaller ones to maximize the damage dealt.



Again, it really comes down to me yearning for the style of combat in MoO2, and everything leading up to those battles, such as being able to customize the weapons after they were attached to the ship, such as point defense weapons and heavy mount, as well as weapon arcs and ranges and such. I feel the more tactical options and depth, the better, so long as it doesn't get too bogged down and complex, but that's just me.

Not being too familiar with other games of this genre in space I have to wonder how that system of combat translated into multiplayer. One of the things I like about the card system is how well I it will work for multiplayer. Combat will have depth, but fast, no-nonsense, get back-to-big-space qualities.

I Like this idea. I would also love to see a little more depth in combat tactics. I think my idea for a "TacAI" technology would fit well inside your Military Doctrine tree. Here are the details:



/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13222-composite-suggestion-two-combat-ideas

I just read your message Oleyo...

why modify the combat system ?

your ideas could simply be cards ...



For your 1st idea :

+X % to all defenses (deflection, absorbtion and Interception if i remember correctly)

-Y % to all damages

Description : all your weapons are firing to intercept and block the incoming attacks.

and... I think this sort of card already exists.



For your 2nd Idea I can't see the interrest. ok, your weapons are firing at an already dead ship. but, it's the same for your enemy.

I like the idea of military doctrine as a tech tree, would be nice to see some more maneuvers during combat.