I'm glad to hear there is so much positive feedback! I really do like the card system but there just aren't enough options and the inability to affect the way my ships work is very frustrating.

I was thinking about this it would be interesting to see 3 different types of cards



Battle Cards: These would apply to the flow of the phases and entire fight



Examples



[HR][/HR]Rush

These bonuses apply to phases: 1/2

Fleet devotes all energy to getting into melee range

-50% accuracy to enemies

Player not able to attack[HR][/HR]



[HR][/HR]Strategic Retreat

These bonuses apply to phases: 1/2/3

Fleet commits to a defensive retreat.

+50% to defensive modules

-50% player accuracy[HR][/HR]





Phase Cards: what we have now



Formation Cards: These would be played in a second slot next to the phase cards



[HR][/HR]Echelon

Allows excellent range of vision to ship in the formation

+15% accuracy for the player

Counter: School[HR][/HR]





[HR][/HR]School

This formation is named and patterned after Terran piscine anti predator behavioy.

Ships use a shifting formation to make focused damage much harder to attain

-15% accuracy to enemies[HR][/HR]

@arrowlance: Allowing a second choice for cards that do something additionally during a combat phase would allow a much deeper combat system."



I like your idea, especially adding the multiple card feature in to the combat. Combat is actually the only - not so - replayable feature of ES. It is working as it is now, but i would like to see some depth in it too! Good thinking out there.

L22 wrote:
@arrowlance: Allowing a second choice for cards that do something additionally during a combat phase would allow a much deeper combat system."



I like your idea, especially adding the multiple card feature in to the combat. Combat is actually the only - not so - replayable feature of ES. It is working as it is now, but i would like to see some depth in it too! Good thinking out there.

Right now I feel like I have to go into manual combat to get good performance but once I'm there its the same thing for virtually every fight. What happened in the first phase should affect what I do in the second and third phases. Naturally patterns will still emerge but with more options to be had and unlocked combat should become more in-depth. Also with more cards, especially ones that affect doctrine I would have more ways to build ships!

ArrowLance wrote:
Also with more cards, especially ones that affect doctrine I would have more ways to build ships!

Yes it would increase the variety in ship building. There could be tanks, damagers, distractors and so on. It would make some point to the battle and make value for roles and different types of ships. Also you would need to really come out with a battle tactic. Not always the same strike, repair, strike for me thank you : )

Maclardal wrote:
We had discussed formations previously, but this is the best idea for implementation so far. Nice job!

Can you point out other discussions on formations? I think a number of people have requested the ability to influence which order their ships defend in. For example, destroyers up front, transports in the back. Formations seems to accomplish this. I am not sure they have to be cards; rather, they could be part of the fleet setup. The RTS game "homeworld" from a few years ago had a good system for this, I will look it up soon.

davea wrote:
Can you point out other discussions on formations? I think a number of people have requested the ability to influence which order their ships defend in. For example, destroyers up front, transports in the back. Formations seems to accomplish this. I am not sure they have to be cards; rather, they could be part of the fleet setup. The RTS game "homeworld" from a few years ago had a good system for this, I will look it up soon.

The reason I think cards are a good choice is because it fits the mode of combat already implemented and allows for in the moment decisions that are needed to make manual combat enjoyable.

I think if you had a battle options screen for about 1min (Or what ever people deside before the game) before your ships warp in, listing things like formations, objectives(what your ships will try to do) and the actual battle cards (Giving you more time) as well as a tick box for both players to be ready.



it would give the players the options they need as well as keeping the flow for MP games.

I would like to see the combat system blown up a little bit. I think an excellent way to do this would be to increase the options we have during combat. I think two cards should be chosen during combat, one from each of two different categories. Like we already have there should be a systems card, these would perform like the cards we already have do. Second a formation/doctrine card which would dictate targeting/movement/formation.



I'll expand on what I think could be done with this. Allowing a second choice for cards that do something additionally during a combat phase would allow a much deeper combat system. I don't think this is a bad thing because combat is an extremely common and mostly unavoidable part of every game of Endless Space. Cards could make your fleet attempt to target specific ships such as those with the greatest military power, or the lowest resistances. They could have your fleet take a formation to attempt and counter enemy targeting or protect more important or missile boats.



To support this a 5th tech tree could be implemented that would be completely devoted to these cards. The command cap techs could be placed here as well. Perhaps instead of using research points to unlock these combat experience gained would be turned into points to unlock doctrines and military buildings could provide a point income (in this case command cap techs would have to remain accessible by RP).



I understand this is probably a pretty huge change to combat systems and it really is only an idea. But I would love to see some extra depth added to manual control in combat.



Edit: Check out my new thread expanding on some more ideas: https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13307-expanding-on-combat-doctrine-and-fleet-construction.

ArrowLance wrote:
I think the way to keep the flow in multiplayer games is to simply cut out the cinematic by default but give 5 or so seconds between each phase.

Not somthing i personally agree with, but i can see why.

L22 wrote:
Yes it would increase the variety in ship building. There could be tanks, damagers, distractors and so on. It would make some point to the battle and make value for roles and different types of ships. Also you would need to really come out with a battle tactic. Not always the same strike, repair, strike for me thank you : )

This would really play well with the idea of adding some more fleet wide specialized modules for ships that could potentially give you different cards to play. Like if you have a CNC cruiser you could have a card that would allow you to focus fire on ships in the rear of an enemy formation or maybe a scanner module that would give you a card with a chance of getting a first-strike off when engaging an enemy fleet.

Definity a good idea. I would like to see it get into the game.

sparhawk814 wrote:
This would really play well with the idea of adding some more fleet wide specialized modules for ships that could potentially give you different cards to play. Like if you have a CNC cruiser you could have a card that would allow you to focus fire on ships in the rear of an enemy formation or maybe a scanner module that would give you a card with a chance of getting a first-strike off when engaging an enemy fleet.

One more thing in the battle card setup that bothers me at times, is that I cant be crucial enough. I can't release hell on them, or i can't really hide in my shield shell. The choices on plate are just a bit too neutral to my taste. Many battles also tend to end in a draw. The battle needs roles, focus and a bit more tactical appearance. So the more the choices the more variety and replayability the game gets!

This is an excellent idea and another way to implement using more cards and give you a reason to build different ship types and not just the biggest ship type you have researched.



The two universal things that have been commented on about combat are 1. We want a controllable, or at least a better cinematic camera for the battles & 2. We want more strategy/ways to fight in combat. Preparing for combat is one thing, but the battle doesn't end in preparing for war, generals have to get the troops to fight too.



What would really be cool if Military doctrine got its own tech tree (and I think it should, its a great idea) is if we could research cards to help play out ground combat/invasion as well. Perhaps there would be a technology where if researched you would get access to a card and a defensive structure/installation associated with using that card. So if you have that defensive installation, such as orbiting turret defenses built on that system, you gain access to using the card that you researched with it to either try repelling or fighting off an enemy fleet, making it harder for them to invade, or delaying the process enough for you to get a fleet over there.

I also agree.

I like this idea a lot, and I think that implementing it through the already neat card mechanic would be feasible and true to the game's design. That being said, we are in Alpha, I wouldn't expect major gameplay changes at this point (at least from my past experiences with Alpha/Beta games). You would really have to get some developers on board to implement this, although it might be easier to add to the game than I imagine...

Mesthione wrote:
I like this idea a lot, and I think that implementing it through the already neat card mechanic would be feasible and true to the game's design. That being said, we are in Alpha, I wouldn't expect major gameplay changes at this point (at least from my past experiences with Alpha/Beta games). You would really have to get some developers on board to implement this, although it might be easier to add to the game than I imagine...

Well combat NEEDS to be improved somehow and can't be put off until after release, so as of right now this seems like the most feasible way to do it. There's been so much feedback and information given on the bugs/performance issues that it shouldn't take too long to take care of those in no time to allow them more of a chance to implement improvements to make the game better.

AWMoore wrote:
Combat is a little linear, and adding some more control to the experience would make it more engaging and entertaining.

Totally agree! Would love a more engaging battle experience!

ArrowLance wrote:
I would like to see the combat system blown up a little bit. I think an excellent way to do this would be to increase the options we have during combat. I think two cards should be chosen during combat, one from each of two different categories. Like we already have there should be a systems card, these would perform like the cards we already have do. Second a formation/doctrine card which would dictate targeting/movement/formation.



I'll expand on what I think could be done with this. Allowing a second choice for cards that do something additionally during a combat phase would allow a much deeper combat system. I don't think this is a bad thing because combat is an extremely common and mostly unavoidable part of every game of Endless Space. Cards could make your fleet attempt to target specific ships such as those with the greatest military power, or the lowest resistances. They could have your fleet take a formation to attempt and counter enemy targeting or protect more important or missile boats.



To support this a 5th tech tree could be implemented that would be completely devoted to these cards. The command cap techs could be placed here as well. Perhaps instead of using research points to unlock these combat experience gained would be turned into points to unlock doctrines and military buildings could provide a point income (in this case command cap techs would have to remain accessible by RP).



I understand this is probably a pretty huge change to combat systems and it really is only an idea. But I would love to see some extra depth added to manual control in combat.

Great idea! I love the idea along with the new techtree !

Mesthione wrote:
I like this idea a lot, and I think that implementing it through the already neat card mechanic would be feasible and true to the game's design. That being said, we are in Alpha, I wouldn't expect major gameplay changes at this point (at least from my past experiences with Alpha/Beta games). You would really have to get some developers on board to implement this, although it might be easier to add to the game than I imagine...

You are right Mesthione. Usually the biggest changes have already been made. I hope the developers will still consider this marvellous idea. Not maybe the whole new tech tree but at least variety to the battle mechanics.

I like the idea of adding a second set of cards or formations and stuff to make combat deeper, but I think that it could easly be integrated into the existing military tree. There is no reason to have a 5th tree, especially one that uses a different resource. I think a refined version of your idea would be to have some of the cards given by hero abilities.



Other than that, great idea!