Cloaking Mechanics

maceman

Newcomer

200g2g pts

13 years ago

Apr 4, 2012, 10:40:39 AM

I always considered 'stealth' to be more of a 'super radar damping' system of some sort. Since space is over such long distances it always seemed it is critical to be able to read ship transponders, bounce laser (ladar) off of viable targets and, yes some kind of viewing option to ID type of ship.

since both laser and visuals are light rays they should be able to be altered or absorbed in some way creating the 'cloaked' effect. sounds to me just like a higher level of shielding or anti-sensor. no biggie. and obviously not early in the game so would be easy to research something to counter it. also obviously it doesn't make sense to be able to burn at high speed and remain cloaked so the limitations should be apparent.

MODNosferatiel

Informer

"God's in his heaven, all's right with the world." Nerv Motto, Neon Genesis Evangelion

MODNosferatiel

Informer

12 years ago

Jun 9, 2012, 4:00:26 PM

This thread is the origin of all cloak module/mechanics discussions.

Other threads about this have been archived:

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13177-suggestion-cloak-module

Feel free to post here about this topic here and inform yourself about the variations the threads listed above have already discussed, but don't open new suggestion threads for anything alike.

Kubly

Newcomer

Kubly

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 19, 2012, 1:43:21 AM

I made a suggestion in a different thread that involved implementing some sort of cloaking on the galaxy map. I'll copy it in here.

I think a nice way to implement automation without dooming your scouts would be a ship module that allows for ships to pass through a system without being seen/not having to fight or interact with enemy fleets. To limit exploitation it could be reserved only for the smallest classes of ship, or it could be a really heavy module that scales with class size (or both). There could even be a race with bonuses to stealth and limits to ship carrying capacity, so they have a hit and run stealth focus.

Here is a link to the other thread: /#/endless-space/forum/27-general/thread/7980-suggestion-automation

I've been tossing this around i a few threads, so I figured I'd add a few more ideas here.

Something along the lines of an Interdictor Class Star Destroyer from Empire at War could be used to counter the cloaking on the galaxy map.

Since its relatively difficult to invade an established system in 1 or 2 turns that shouldnt really be a problem with cloaked ships.

Star system improvements that give a chance to detect cloaked ships would be a good feature, as well as the anti-cloaking module only providing a chance, not a definite detection, keeping things interesting.

Boygor

Newcomer

Boygor

Newcomer

13 years ago

Apr 5, 2012, 8:43:45 PM

I always remember my hot seat (and most recently thanks to GOG, online games) of Moo2 and the phase cloak madness towards the end of the game. I think that cloaks would be interesting but should play more of a stealth/ initiative kinda way... (vague I know).

Why stop at ships though? It would be interesting to cloak stations or even planets under certain conditions

SomeGuy

Newcomer

SomeGuy

Newcomer

13 years ago

Apr 5, 2012, 4:43:38 PM

Interesting ideas. Bonuses and penalties for a cloaked ships, bonuses against specific weapon types. I hadn't considered these things.

Becks

Newcomer

Becks

Newcomer

13 years ago

Apr 5, 2012, 4:32:47 PM

Maybe you can only detect that "something" is coming. But you do not really know what. A Scout? A Battleship?

MODNosferatiel

Informer

"God's in his heaven, all's right with the world." Nerv Motto, Neon Genesis Evangelion

MODNosferatiel

Informer

13 years ago

Apr 5, 2012, 11:40:42 AM

VieuxChat wrote:
It make me think about the fact that with cloaking we also need some kind of jammers that would reduce the accuracy of incoming missiles, and/or decoys, and/or ECM that would send the missiles back to the launching ship.

Not just shields or armor that substract an amount of damage.

Cloak would reduce the overall probability of being hit with a cost in accuracy (for instance the first level of cloaking would reduce incoming fire by 20% and your fire by 20%, then better versions of cloaking would reduce the penalty and enhance the bonus)

That's certainly one way to do it. But it might be fun to have optical cloaking techs reduce laser damage but leave the ships armor underneath it less effective against, say, missiles.

MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

Truth is a chameleon. Herbert

MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

25 400g2g pts

13 years ago

Apr 5, 2012, 11:10:46 AM

It make me think about the fact that with cloaking we also need some kind of jammers that would reduce the accuracy of incoming missiles, and/or decoys, and/or ECM that would send the missiles back to the launching ship.

Not just shields or armor that substract an amount of damage.

Cloak would reduce the overall probability of being hit with a cost in accuracy (for instance the first level of cloaking would reduce incoming fire by 20% and your fire by 20%, then better versions of cloaking would reduce the penalty and enhance the bonus)

MODNosferatiel

Informer

"God's in his heaven, all's right with the world." Nerv Motto, Neon Genesis Evangelion

MODNosferatiel

Informer

13 years ago

Apr 5, 2012, 6:54:49 AM

Just to make a little point that came to my mind, today:

No cloaking can be completely perfect without steering the ship, blindly.

If you want to detect a ship, that can happen either actively, sending something and waiting for the return, like sonar, radar or laser scanning, or it can happen passively, just "listening" for some crucial ship emission.

If you search actively, you have to give up your position, because you've sent something that is detectable, in itself.

If you search passively, the ship's detector array has to have a spot where the cloaking device is not active, so the emissions you search for can reach the detector.

Otherwise you simply drive around blindly.

I think we should keep these basic principles in mind when thinking of "cloaking" at all and I'm not sure how to fit that into the combat system. Might be easier to just affect shipfleet-visibility on the galaxy screen and evasion probabilities during combat.

MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

Truth is a chameleon. Herbert

MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

25 400g2g pts

13 years ago

Apr 5, 2012, 5:15:50 AM

I cloaking needs the ship to be on a certain location, then the ship crew could make a test to know if they are able to place them as to be able to use the cloaking device. It wouldn't be a 100% usable device, but it would be dependant on the crew (a good crew would be able to utilize the cloaking device easily)

Raptor

Newcomer

Raptor

Newcomer

1 700g2g pts

13 years ago

Apr 4, 2012, 9:56:23 PM

Nice links Nosferatiel, also BAE's adaptive system providing thermal signature changing and invisibility: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlLqdFsMnCE

When we talk about stealth especially stealth from the future, we can expect it to be multi-directional.

MODNosferatiel

Informer

"God's in his heaven, all's right with the world." Nerv Motto, Neon Genesis Evangelion

MODNosferatiel

Informer

13 years ago

Apr 4, 2012, 9:39:06 PM

maceman wrote:
I always considered 'stealth' to be more of a 'super radar damping' system of some sort. Since space is over such long distances it always seemed it is critical to be able to read ship transponders, bounce laser (ladar) off of viable targets and, yes some kind of viewing option to ID type of ship.

since both laser and visuals are light rays they should be able to be altered or absorbed in some way creating the 'cloaked' effect. sounds to me just like a higher level of shielding or anti-sensor. no biggie. and obviously not early in the game so would be easy to research something to counter it. also obviously it doesn't make sense to be able to burn at high speed and remain cloaked so the limitations should be apparent.

There are some interesting materials under research right now. Just think of the magnetic cloaking: http://www.nature.com/news/antimagnet-renders-magnets-invisible-1.10292

or optical cloaking experiments: http://www.nature.com/nmat/journal/v8/n7/abs/nmat2461.html

On the other hand, they managed to look around corners, optically: http://www.nature.com/news/how-to-see-around-corners-1.10258#/b1%22

So it is not farfetched to reflect cloaking strategy vs sensor technology research advances in the game. In the easiest way by sight range.

SomeGuy

Newcomer

SomeGuy

Newcomer

13 years ago

Apr 3, 2012, 9:18:47 PM

Cloaking is not uncommon in 4x games, whether space based or not. Whether or not cloaking will be implemented into this game, I don't know. But that doesn't mean it won't make for a good discussion.

I think cloaking is a difficult feature to implement in a game. Many times I see cloaking added with the counter-balance of some sort of advanced scanner to counter the cloak. The problem with this is that it makes cloaking absolutely obsolete. All one does is add a scanner to their ships, and cloaked ships appear just as non-cloaked ships. Since and enemy can simply add a small simple scanner to counter the cloak, why bother putting a cloaking device on a ship? It simply takes up valuable space now.

Instead of having an omniscient sensor that can detect cloaked ships at normal range, perhaps having said sensor can only detect a cloaked ship at a reduced range. Say the normal scanners can detect ships up to 10 units (however far that is). Having a cloaking sensor would detect cloaked ships up to 4 units instead of the normal 10 units. This way there is still a benefit to having a cloak, but the cloak isn't all-powerful, either.

What do you think is the best way to make cloaking a positive feature in the game? How can a cloaking system retain the benefit of being invisible, yet still have a counter that doesn't make the cloak completely worthless to have? I'm interested in hearing your ideas, whether good or bad.

Tristrim

Newcomer

Tristrim

Newcomer

13 years ago

Apr 4, 2012, 6:31:36 AM

Stealth should be on a high tier of research and inherently unbalanced. At least in games where you have full control. But I like the idea of your ships getting the first shots off in Endless Space's combat system.

Or maybe even harder to detect on the main map.

MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

Truth is a chameleon. Herbert

MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

25 400g2g pts

13 years ago

Apr 4, 2012, 5:43:58 AM

Stealth may also be not 100% accurate. It could just add a small percentage of totally evading incoming missiles, beam and cannons. Scanner would reduce the percentage , but wouldn't cancel it.

Stealth could add somethign else : the ability to "first strike in a battle" as long as they're not revealed. For each range (long, medium, close) the game would make a roll to know if the scanner succeed to detect anything.

Stealth could add a "sneak" attack, even when revealed (but a less sneaky attack)

Being totally stealthed is, in my mind, a very powerfull bonus because intel has always been the first step to military victory. So maybe stealth could have two different working gameplay in strategic and tactic area.

Raptor

Newcomer

Raptor

Newcomer

1 700g2g pts

13 years ago

Apr 3, 2012, 10:39:16 PM

SomeGuy wrote:

As such, what kinds of benefits and downsides would cloaking grant in a battle? And since I am not very knowledgeable about how exactly the combat system will work (though I have my ideas and guesses), it's difficult for me to speculate how cloaking could be best used in a tactical format.

I think Raptor is correct, though. The balancing act is what makes it difficult.

Well if we have to theorize its usefulness, say I had customized my ships with short range weapons, I put the stealth modules on, then I'd have a huge advantage vs ships with mixed loadout. I can get close and smoke them, but then again to balance this there would probably be anti-stealth sensors, so when I get into a battle with my short range weapons and stealth, the enemy will destroy me with his long range weapons and anti-stealth. So it sounds like it's going to be a sure win or a sure loss, it's going to be pretty hard to balance that.

quastebec

Newcomer

quastebec

Newcomer

13 years ago

Apr 3, 2012, 10:37:20 PM

Maybe true, but using space on your ship for something that is possibly completely useless if countered is perhaps a risk great enough to make this a difficult decision.

It would if detection would not be something like (yes / no) from the start of the battle but, depending on the quality of the cloaking device and on the quality of the detection device, something that gets more possible if the cloaked ships close up on the enemy.

But i suppose even to make qualified suggestions, we need to know more about the options you have in combat. For example if it is possible to split your fleet in several groups with different orders etc. ... otherwise the decoy and cloaced ambush tactic would not be feasible in the first place...

SomeGuy

Newcomer

SomeGuy

Newcomer

13 years ago

Apr 3, 2012, 10:32:02 PM

It may not be difficult to implement in tactical battles, especially in a traditional real-time battle where you have control over everything that happens (like most all RTS's). But from what I understand, the way combat works isn't like a traditional RTS where you get to control all aspects of combat.

As such, what kinds of benefits and downsides would cloaking grant in a battle? And since I am not very knowledgeable about how exactly the combat system will work (though I have my ideas and guesses), it's difficult for me to speculate how cloaking could be best used in a tactical format.

I think Raptor is correct, though. The balancing act is what makes it difficult.

Raptor

Newcomer

Raptor

Newcomer

1 700g2g pts

13 years ago

Apr 3, 2012, 10:26:31 PM

Not that it is difficult to implement, but I can imagine it being difficult to balance.

quastebec

Newcomer

quastebec

Newcomer

13 years ago

Apr 3, 2012, 10:19:17 PM

Why would it be difficult to implement cloaking in the tactical battles?

I can easily imagine how a fleet with several cloaked ships enters a battle and is able to bring them close to the enemy without beeing detected and for example directly entering close combat with them, of course only if they have the right (powerfull) kind of cloaking technology.