While i agree a more efficient system would be nice, until you have all the cards memorized that is. In practice this idea may create more problems than solve... Some of the cards don't really fit so easily into one category so choosing the right pictures to denote use. Also pictures would be harder to understand for new people on the fly, and lets face it new players are confused enough. Also you said in replacement of the text, i say in addition to the text.

reading sevral cards before battles with the tiny text they have is a pain and i would like an easier way to find out what each card does. +1 internets for you sir

I heartily +1 this idea. Also, maybe you could just point at a symbol and the game would show what it stands for. This way you don't have to memorise all the symbols or consult the legend, just point at it and voila - you know what is what.

Lee_Nox wrote:
I heartily +1 this idea. Also, maybe you could just point at a symbol and the game would show what it stands for. This way you don't have to memorise all the symbols or consult the legend, just point at it and voila - you know what is what.

Interesting idea. Since combat is timed, the popup would have to show instantly; you cannot afford to wait. That might get annoying after awhile. I mean, I can definitely see it being useful for someone new to the game. But after that, I'd at least want the option to disable it.



Besides, the way I see it you could use symbols already established in the game. The average player eventually learns what the three different weapon symbols are. Same goes for the three defense symbols. All six are plastered throughout research and ship design. I am willing to bet just using those six symbols would replace 75% of the text explaining what each card does.

+1

Good idea. Could also auto arrange the cards into their types more clearly (current arrangement looks jumbled to me, possibly separate them into their own columns) on top of the already set suggestions of clearer color coding and more abbreviated text.

Slash_Enris wrote:
+1

Good idea. Could also auto arrange the cards into their types more clearly (current arrangement looks jumbled to me, possibly separate them into their own columns) on top of the already set suggestions of clearer color coding and more abbreviated text.

Absolutely agree with you there, especially with better organizing the cards. I know that has been mentioned here more than once.



Ultimately, all these ideas we've come up with boil down to one concept: make it easier for us to determine which card we want. We need to examine the cards, absorb the information, and make a choice. But our time is limited, so the information needs to be easier to absorb. Symbols, card arrangement, and distinct color coding all seek to address this issue.

I like your idea, and i would like to add to it... I think when you have the card screen open, the timer should stop, so your also not rushed to pick a card

Wilson212 wrote:
I like your idea, and i would like to add to it... I think when you have the card screen open, the timer should stop, so your also not rushed to pick a card

Thanks for the support! I was just thinking I should Bump this thread. Now I do not have to.



As for the pause idea, yeah I am all for it. If you scroll up this thread to my post on 06-03-12, you will find a link to a proposal for just that. Go there, voice your support, and get us a pause feature!

I just want the cards to make sense in the first place. Why would I ever select a card which boosts kinetic/missile damage if I don't have them. As in, cards need to be simplified. Offensive cards should affect all your fleet weapons while defensive oriented cards could selectively boost a defense. There could be mixed cards, boost my offense - raise one defense but slacken the others.

*bump*



Looking for more votes in the poll.

NewHorizon wrote:
Some of the cards don't really fit so easily into one category so choosing the right pictures to denote use.

I agree, not all cards fit. But if you changed the ones that DID have easy categories, it would go a long way to helping the average player when it comes to battle card selection. Instead of having to read text on, say 15 cards, you may only have 3. The other 12 would have symbols that you could easily skim.

NewHorizon wrote:
Also pictures would be harder to understand for new people on the fly, and lets face it new players are confused enough.

I disagree. Folks have an easier time with symbols than text. That is why so many games heavily rely on symbols to relay information.



And it is not like we need to come up with new symbols. As I have already stated, Endless Space already utilizes symbols for weapon types and defense types. These are symbols new players will need to learn regardless. So why not use them here, further reinforcing the symbols' importance. They alone could replace most battle cards' text.



Okay, here's my (crude) depiction of what I am talking about.



CURRENTLY





WHAT I PROPOSE





The symbols I used are directly cut-and-paste from the Endless Space ship design screen.



As I look at it, not only do the symbols convey the info easier but also numbers (and the block bonus) stand out clearer. The percentages are not lost in amongst the text.

i kinda agree but for a small symbol not the whole "kinetic picture" on the card.

i think a " PAUSE " button like at the arrival phase could help a lot to consider the cards right?

That does look nice, and i suppose the learning curve isn't much worse than learning what a deflector does and what a shield does.

+1. The preparation phase is the most frustrating for me, being so short.



I'd like it to be sth like: " +40% dmg /n -20% eff".



+1 for the starting active pause idea also.

Thanks for the support, sp0q.

You should learn the cards, and decide what you're likely going to use before the battle even starts. The arrival phase is merely for selecting the choices you've already made.

Velaux wrote:
You should learn the cards, and decide what you're likely going to use before the battle even starts. The arrival phase is merely for selecting the choices you've already made.

A wise rule to follow. But what do you do when you are attacked? You cannot look at cards before battle then.

I don't have an issue with this at all, but this change wouldn't hurt me and would most definitely help others.

AtoningUnifex wrote:
Yep great idea +1



I have to say that i really dislike the timed aspect of the combat though. I like turn based games because i like to consider options carefully without having to rush. I think the card selection in combat should pause the action giving time to think..... rant over

Yes indeed to this idea of having longer times or a pause. Espcially for the Tutorial and Newbie Difficulty settings there should be a Pause Button. You could off players new to this kind of thing by not giving them some slack in this department Devs.

I support this, though your "Yes!" option is a touch too enthusiastic for me.

My god man. That is exactly what this game is missing.



That would be both consistent and concise. Though, tooltips may be needed for n00bs.



Rating thread 5 stars

I absolutely agree with you Prophet and have struggled with this myself - fantastic idea!

I play in the 1920x1200 resolution nad I have no issues with text being small at all

This would really, really make a big user friendly difference! Definitely a +1

yes, +1 to this, would definitely be helpful.

All my FIDS are in this one, do eet.

Yep great idea +1



I have to say that i really dislike the timed aspect of the combat though. I like turn based games because i like to consider options carefully without having to rush. I think the card selection in combat should pause the action giving time to think..... rant over

I love the battle card system. But one problem I have, especially mid-to-late game, is trying to read all the tiny text and pick a card before the phase timer expires. It is really hard when it get to 10 or 12 cards.



How about replacing the informational text with symbols? We already have symbols in-game for all three types of weaponry, and all three types of defenses. Replace the text with the corresponding symbol. For example: Weapon Overclock give +40% Kinetics damage and -20% Antimissile Interception. Replace "Kinetic damage" with the Kinetic symbol (row of shells) and "Antimissile Interception" with the Flak symbol (flak truck).



To denote the difference between friendly and enemy effects, you could change the color of the symbol.



Thoughts? Opinions? Mild rantings of the criminally insane?



EDIT: To get an idea of what I mean, check my post here: https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space/forum/28-game-design/thread/12223-symbols-on-battle-cards

Really great idea tbh. I've been staring myself blind at the cards and when it comes to some of them I'm still not sure what they do due to cryptic wording. xP Not to mention that I hate playing computer games with my reading glasses on.. <.<



EDIT: Though I'd like a pause option during battle, as mentioned above, and I think it might be beneficial to the game, I also like the idea of the battles actually being real time with little time to maneuver. To me, this reflects the actual pressure of a commander having to make decisions on the fly.

I've had some similar thoughts (though with new simpler symbols where the defenses and offenses have a consistent similarity), as well as some others:

• I was also trying to decide on some sort of secondary color usage to go with some Battle suggestions I've been considering...like not specific colors for each type of weapon and defense, but having the image being white and some other color, like for impact/explosion, in a unique shape to help make it eye-catching.
  
  For example, for the weapons: like having Red-to-yellow gradient explosions of different shapes in the bottom right, and a straight line (laser), dotted line (kinetics), pointed shape with little flame trail (missile) going from top left towards the bottom right, with a focus on clarity of the shape for quick identification.
  
  
  
  
  
  
• I also think a further change in the cards to have a standard symbol for Defense, Offense, Engineering, and Sabotage based on the existing (faint and hard to see) color scheme is necessary to aid in identification.
  
  One way to implement my thoughts on this would be to have 4 lines with each symbol and the text (Defense, etc.) under it on the left in the card selection window, a tinted background, and the list of the cards of that type following, with the bottom right of each card showing a "right-striking" lightning bolt type break through a color coded symbol for what it counters. Lines could spill over, but having it being a convention of the UI that it shows a partial fading out image of a card along with a tall triangle arrow shape on the left and right if there are more selections seems like it would be necessary for how the collection of options can grow.
  
  I have other ideas for that like the mousewheel scrolling the row under the mouse for quick access and thoughts on how to sort the list.

Hrothgaar wrote:
EDIT: Though I'd like a pause option during battle, as mentioned above, and I think it might be beneficial to the game, I also like the idea of the battles actually being real time with little time to maneuver. To me, this reflects the actual pressure of a commander having to make decisions on the fly.

True enough, but with the current battle maneuvers simply being "fly towards each other" there's already limited strategy involved. Plus having to choose the next card during the current phase it means i spend a lot of time staring at the choices and missing the actual battle - although this idea of simple icons might help there.

AtoningUnifex wrote:
True enough, but with the current battle maneuvers simply being "fly towards each other" there's already limited strategy involved. Plus having to choose the next card during the current phase it means i spend a lot of time staring at the choices and missing the actual battle - although this idea of simple icons might help there.

I agree here too!



Suggestion in addition to the icons and complimenting it:



It would be better if we just loaded up a Pre-Battle Deck thats linked to icons on a Bar much like many mmo action quick-slot bars you just press a key to activate Card X,Y,Z or whatever from 1 - 0 F1 to F12 on your keyboard or using the mouse and have a seemless more interactive experience. The action bar can get tucked away off to the left, right, top or bottom of the screen and not interfere with the, atm, Rinse and Repeat scripted battle graphics we have before us.

+1 on this as well, I cant believe no one came up with this already

I agree, I think the simplification of the battle cards would help but I'm still personally unsure of why the devs felt they needed a timer in a singleplayer game at all. Multiplayer perhaps but I don't see why players should be pressured into making rapid choices in singleplayer in a turn-based game.

Thanks for the support! It seemed like a sorely needed concept, but I wasn't sure how others felt.



I realize that not every line on the battle cards fits this suggestion. We could replace the Weapon Type Damage with symbols, but what about Accuracy? Maybe there they could create new symbols. Or they could keep those as text. I think just replacing the common phrases with symbols would go a long way to helping out the player.



You could also add a Key or Legend at the bottom of the battle card window, telling what each symbol means. I play at 1280 x 1024, so there is plenty of space. Does anyone play at a lower resolution and think this might be a problem?

AtoningUnifex wrote:
Plus having to choose the next card during the current phase it means i spend a lot of time staring at the choices and missing the actual battle - although this idea of simple icons might help there.

I know someone did suggest having the battle pause whenever you are selecting your battle card. Or simply adding a pause key for battles. I was all for it. Like you, I miss most of the battle while picking cards. I say give me time to pick my card. That way I can watch all the pretty pretty pew-pew action.



EDIT - Here it is: /#/endless-space/forum/28-game-design/thread/12629-suggestion-pause-combat-while-chosing-battle-actions

demalion wrote:
I also think a further change in the cards to have a standard symbol for Defense, Offense, Engineering, and Sabotage based on the existing (faint and hard to see) color scheme is necessary to aid in identification.

One way to implement my thoughts on this would be to have 4 lines with each symbol and the text (Defense, etc.) under it on the left in the card selection window, a tinted background, and the list of the cards of that type following, with the bottom right of each card showing a "right-striking" lightning bolt type break through a color coded symbol for what it counters. Lines could spill over, but having it being a convention of the UI that it shows a partial fading out image of a card along with a tall triangle arrow shape on the left and right if there are more selections seems like it would be necessary for how the collection of options can grow.

I like your ideas for the battle card types a lot. I wish they were grouped in 4 lines as you describe. And it makes sense to extend symbol usage to card counters.

GC13 wrote:
I support this, though your "Yes!" option is a touch too enthusiastic for me.

My strained eyes disagree with you.