Fine then.

Meaning careful sweeping can be effective on any system with 2+ population on a planet with moon.

Is then better?

Stalker0 wrote:
I think we are getting a little OT here.





To the OP, your suggestion is not needed because the improvement does a lot more than you think it does. However, the text is wrong and absolutely needs to be fixed.



If people still think the improvements are weak, than that is a different discussion.

Agreed, I was misled, only the description needs to be changed.

I think we are getting a little OT here.





To the OP, your suggestion is not needed because the improvement does a lot more than you think it does. However, the text is wrong and absolutely needs to be fixed.



If people still think the improvements are weak, than that is a different discussion.

250 industry (cost for careful sweeping) - with industry to dust conversion would provide 62.5 dust in the time spent to build careful sweeping ...



Setting the profit goal as low 1 extra dust per turn - it could take at 62 turns to get the same dust out of it - and you only get the full 62 dust amount -> 62 turns latter ...



-----

That is why I advise building the thing when it actually provides at least 4-5 dust on top of it maintenance costs ...

Depends on the set up, can be mid-late game, but if I have a small focused empire I can do it before I have the first approval structure.

Igncom1 wrote:
I cant say I optimize my empire very well....but I am a UE player that prefers 60+ taxes...

Well that changes the numbers in your particular case



x * 2 * 0.55 * 1.1 > 2+1

(2+1)/(2*0.55*1.1) = 2.47934 - will need 3 suitable pop



But again I suspect - it will take a while before you are able to crank the taxes up to 60% and not get -50% penalties due to approval ...

I cant say I optimize my empire very well....but I am a UE player that prefers 60+ taxes...

Igncom1 wrote:
Well industry worth was not taken in to account here, for even +1 positive dust is what i would consider effective as it effectively pays for itself over time.

Trust me you'll need a lot more than 2 suitable population units to get that +1 positive dust on top of the maintenance costs on an outpost with empire tax bellow or equal 30% ...



At 30% tax level on outpost with a non UE faction math goes like this



x *2 * 0.3 > 2+1



(2 + 1) / (2 * 0.3) = 5 population units to get 1 dust per turn out of it



And I personally wouldn't invest 250 industry during the outpost stage for an improvement that would only grant me +1 dust per turn ...

no, its +2 dust per population on planet with moon.

So wait, let me get this straight, the raw, straight-up effect of the Careful Sweeping improvement is "+2 Dust per population per planet with a moon", not "+2 Dust per moon"?

Well industry worth was not taken in to account here, for even +1 positive dust is what i would consider effective as it effectively pays for itself over time.

Igncom1 wrote:
Fine then.



Is then better?

Definitely better but still misleading ... To get meaningful dust gains out of it (the improvement provides no other benefits but dust) - lets say 4-5 dust per turn on top of its maintenance cost to justify the industry cost of the improvement in a system with only 2 population on a planet with a moon will need a very high empire tax level (over 50%) and some hefty % dust bonuses on top of that on a colony (not outpost) ... And those restrictions are typically met only during med-late game ...



That's why I say potentially misleading -> early game (particularly on outposts) there is no way in hell you are going to make careful sweeping worth it with only 2 suitable population units.. But its impossible to infer that from your technically correct statement "can be effective on any system with 2+ population on a planet with moon " unless you already know the mechanics ...

Asof now the carefull sweep improvement is pretty worthless, I would sugest that instead of a fixed ammount of dust per moon, carefull sweep would instead give a percentage multiplier on system income.

Igncom1 wrote:
I don't remember adding the brackets there.



So I am sure your right.

English is not my primary language.. The brackets represent the meaning I gather from that quote .. A broad (inaccurate) statement that could mislead other players that don't know how the system level dust mechanics work ..

peddroelm wrote:
"Making careful sweeping effective on ANY system with 2+ population on a planet with moon. (no matter the tax - no matter the time - always effective) "

Wrong

I don't remember adding the brackets there.



So I am sure your right.

Igncom1 wrote:
Never do I sate by how much, or by what taxation level you should be at.



So yes, effective by looking at the numbers.

"Making careful sweeping effective on ANY system with 2+ population on a planet with moon. (no matter the tax - no matter the time - always effective) "

Wrong

peddroelm wrote:
I specifically highlighted the very wrong part "Making careful sweeping effective on any system with 2+ population on a planet with moon."

Never do I sate by how much, or by what taxation level you should be at.



So yes, effective by looking at the numbers.

Igncom1 wrote:
So I am wrong, then you repeat what I said and that makes it right?



lol

I specifically highlighted the very wrong part "Making careful sweeping effective on any system with 2+ population on a planet with moon."

peddroelm wrote:
WRONG

Careful sweeping will generate 2 dust per population unit per planet with explored moon BUT that happens at planetary level ...

Then that dust reaches system level were it can swiftly disappear because your empire tax rate is set to low ... More details :

So I am wrong, then you repeat what I said and that makes it right?



lol

Igncom1 wrote:
Careful sweeping give you a fixed income per population on planets with moons.



The same goes for other improvements that use moons.



Making careful sweeping effective on any system with 2+ population on a planet with moon.

WRONG



Careful sweeping will generate 2 dust per population unit per planet with explored moon BUT that happens at planetary level ...

Then that dust reaches system level were it can swiftly disappear because your empire tax rate is set to low ... More details :



here (planetary level fids output)

/#/endless-space/forum/33-strategy-guides/thread/14011-planetary-level-fids-output-guide



then here (system level dust formulas)

/#/endless-space/forum/33-strategy-guides/thread/14013-solar-system-level-fids-guide



and then here (analysis of worth for financial improvements - Xenotourism & Careful sweeping)

/#/endless-space/forum/33-strategy-guides/thread/14013-solar-system-level-fids-guide



=========



This is one of the main reason I suggested system improvements should show their FIDS impact on a system BEFORE you build them ...This would prevent errors such as building the financial improvements too early (many many players do those kind of mistakes...) /#/endless-space/forum/28-game-design/thread/12311-tooltip-system-benefits-for-building-razing-improvements