Igncom1 wrote:
I dunno, the idea behind the points would be giving them everything you said apart from the actual gun, for them to invest their research into when necessary.



Besides I am arguing against trading technology.

But if you trade science points, then you could make the game even more unfair; in this situation, you don't know what those research points are going towards.

Well for the cravers its not especially hard to accomplish, and there are times when you can't finish a player because of other concerns and approval, so demanding a paid peace is a good option to do.

Igncom1 wrote:
Well you can trade tech for a cease-fire.



Some times you need a brake from the constant harassment of your trade systems.

This is not an easy solution though. For one thing, if a Craver player wants to bully tech out of another player, he needs to already have the upper hand, which isn't easy.

Well you can trade tech for a cease-fire.



Some times you need a brake from the constant harassment of your trade systems.

Igncom1 wrote:
Siphoning tech points would be nice, but I still disagree with taking an entire technology in one swoop.

I'm seriously opposed to the idea of stealing tech. However, in response to the previous discussion, Cravers can still trade; but who would trade with them? Most new players generally view the Cravers as the biggest threat, since they can't be at peace. Even intermediate players try to avoid giving the Cravers even more tech.

Siphoning tech points would be nice, but I still disagree with taking an entire technology in one swoop.

I'd like to be able to steal technologies. Also, it would be nice if trading technologies made you lose the technology yourself (even if that doesn't make sense).

The cravers can trade I believe, they just can't be at peace.



So if there is no way to prevent it while allowing tech trading, then we probably should just eliminate it from the game entirely.

Again, there's no way of knowing if other players are pulling this scheme, so you can't buddy up and do the same. And... doesn't the same exact solution also apply to the current tech trading system?

And how can Cravers have serious trading deals with other players?

Well cost for the other player, besides its not like there would ever be a system to fully fund a friend, only like 20%



And that also means that there is a player with 80% research speed, who don't necessarily start together.



But one method for preventing this would be to get an ally of your own, people need to work together at the beginning if your not all warmongers to fend of pirates and establish borders (A better diplomacy system would be grand).



But other then what I have sated, the only other solution would be to only allow it from taken enemy worlds or even just not at all.

Igncom1 wrote:
If thats cheating the we should all ban the Hissho!



Early game such an approach can easily be out competed by anyone who trades, especially the pilgrims and amoeba.



And by the time the first player is ready to switch the favor most other players will be more then prepared to go to war with either party, with large chances at success.

But just like the current system, you won't know if other players are actually doing this. Meaning you can't just decide to form a counter if you don't know of the threat. Plus, Amoeba and Pilgrims still have to pay a price in their trades. Players in my scenario who use this tactic will gain only advantages and benefits at no cost.

If thats cheating the we should all ban the Hissho!



Early game such an approach can easily be out competed by anyone who trades, especially the pilgrims and amoeba.



And by the time the first player is ready to switch the favor most other players will be more then prepared to go to war with either party, with large chances at success.

Igncom1 wrote:
I dunno about that, if you can put a price to a technology then you are also putting a price towards a number of research points.



But in the end the idea is to prevent 2 friends just leapfrogging off each other then what im suggesting will prevent them from doing it.



Besides RP are never worthless, especially for the Sophon!

But the Sophon will pay less for them, which was my point.

And yes, while your plan does prevent leapfrogging, it still has a similar loophole - one player can just dump all his RP to the other player, who uses it to boost his military and infrastructure, and then conquers more planets than any other player is capable of, then produces more RP and pays back to the player who originally gave him the boost. It's not as easy as trading tech, but it still allows a situation where two players (who were friends before the game) can gain early advantages and eventually become more powerful than any other player, meaning there is still a "legal cheating" system.

I dunno about that, if you can put a price to a technology then you are also putting a price towards a number of research points.



But in the end the idea is to prevent 2 friends just leapfrogging off each other then what im suggesting will prevent them from doing it.



Besides RP are never worthless, especially for the Sophon!

Igncom1 wrote:
That was the point, players can't cut out technology's by trading the techs and still require them to research all of their own technology's.

I think you misunderstand. In the current system, if you want to trade and give another player the ability to colonize Arid Planets, for example, you can trade him the Arid tech; you know what you're giving him and what that's going towards.

In your system, you would trade him research points. He could use those for the Arid tech, or he could dump it into a weapons system that he subsequently uses to gain an early advantage.

In the current system, you know the value of what you're trading. If you're trading the Arid tech, you know the kind of value that tech would have, and thus can demand equal payment.

In your system, you don't know the value of those research points you're giving. You might try trading them to him for a large amount of dust, but he's only willing to trade a measly handful of Dust; the research points don't mean as much to him as to you, or he's bluffing. Or conversely, you might try trading the research points to him and ask for a small bit of Dust, when he would otherwise be willing to pay large amounts.

I'm not saying those issues aren't present in the current system, but in your system you're trading away something that you don't even know what it is. It's like having a cardboard box that you can hear something inside of, and trying to pawn it. Maybe it's a solid gold brick, or maybe it's a roll of toilet paper. The current system involves some strategy and thinking; you can try to guess the value that Arid tech would have to another player. If he asked for it, then maybe he has a lot of Arid planets around him. It's a low level tech; maybe he doesn't have a lot of Science FIDS, or maybe he's using them for other technology; in which case, do you want to give him that extra tech, or do you want to fuel his weak Science industry?

In your system, it's less of a thinking game and more of a gambling game. Arid tech, as an example, is a tangible tech. You know exactly what purpose it serves, exactly how the other player will use it, and you can use the demands of the other player to gauge a little bit about his current infrastructure. When trading research points, you're gambling on how much those research points are worth, without even knowing what you're trading them.

Plus, in your system, it becomes almost pointless to trade tech with a Sophon player, or any player with a strong Science industry. Research points are worth less to them, so they will only give you small amounts of material in exchange, meaning you may as well just spend those research points yourself. Whereas, if you're a player with a low Science industry, you can expect to pay massive sums for research points.

That was the point, players can't cut out technology's by trading the techs and still require them to research all of their own technology's.

Turning off "tech exchange" in diplomacy will prevent to play with some people who cooperative in tech tree. (like friends)

One person develops 2 tech trees, and second person develop two different tech tree.

Both have 100% boost in technology!!!!



In my opinion its some kind of legal cheating. Should be possibility to block in MP,

.....or find different solution for people doing like that.

Its a part of the game to pay with technologie.Sometimes weaker players with good researching pay with technoligies to guard them.but the problem what you discribe is really a realevant imbalanc.Techtrading as a special research can be work i think but the trading must be recieve for the more diplomaticial players.war iss already too strong,if you take out the technology trades it not will be better.

I dunno, the idea behind the points would be giving them everything you said apart from the actual gun, for them to invest their research into when necessary.



Besides I am arguing against trading technology.

Igncom1 wrote:
Well you share accumulated knowledge rather then a ray gun that they don't know how to build.

Well if your researchers gave you a ray gun and said they had no idea how they built it, you would probably get new researchers. Presumably they have some way of conveying their designs and technologies - blueprints? - that is much easier to distribute than science itself.