there is only one thing i can say to the random tech tree from SotS more as 70-80% of the techs are weapons or something thats improve your ship in many ways and in ES 60-75% of the tech improve you planets/system thats the diffrent between SotS and ES so i'm not for a random tech tree in ES but if you must make a chose like MoO2 and get the other stuff you dont reseach with spys/trade of conquer it would be more intressting for example



you get a new tech lvl in military now you must chose



Heavy Armor (Defens/HP for Ships)

Starfortress (More Systemdefens)

Battle Mech (More Powerfull Invasions)



Edit: and sorry for my bad english

I've always thought the random tech tree thing was a bit of a hoaky dice simulation of just not knowing what's out there.



The randomness implemented in this game is in how your needed resources are scattered throughout the galaxy. Maybe you'll have the stuff, maybe you won't for a long time. It's a great way to do it, because you can actually go hunting for the needed stuff, and change your plans based on not having it for a while.

for the record: SOTS actually did it by having every link between techs carry a % chance of existing, that was race dependent.

So a tech that was pivotal for the game had at least one link that was 100% for all races, whereas a tech that was specific to a race had links at 100% for them, but 0% for the others.

Most links had a varied %chance though, meaning that some races were less likely to go a certain path, but it wasnt impossible.

Putting the chances on the links rather than the techs had the convenient side effect of allowing shortcuts that might or might not give you a leg up from A to C without going through B.



It could also have a big effect in differentiating the gameplay of the different races. In ES's case your militaristic races might be more likely to get extra links in the weapons tree allowing them more flexibility to choose their weapons whereas the financial races might be forced to plod through the entire weapons tree but can skip more quickly to the economics techs that best suit the planets they have.



It really did do wonders for SOTS's replayability, and it would be a shame if ES didnt learn from their innovation.

First of this thread is realy realy awesome ^^



Ive collected some of the ideas most appealing to me

I'd like to add another variant to the discussion: What about different flavors of technology? Almost all SciFi 4X games I've played allow you to research lasers, tachyon, plasma, graviton, etc, weapons. Sometimes in parallel, sometimes they are sequential. Wouldn't it be nice to get essentially the same main benefit from lasers (+1/+5+10 damage, whatever), as well as some unique "laser-specific" perks, as you would get when researching tachyon technology - again (+1/+5/+10 damage), but with different perks.



During each game you may not have access to each type of beam weapon technology, but still derive the same base benefits, with added tech specific flavor. This way each game becomes more unique and colorful.



Another idea: Randomization within a known set of technologies. To avoid dead ending a branch, but still providing some uncertainty and a "fog of knowledge" the sequence in which technology is researched could be randomized, or the amount of "research points" it takes for each one may vary by an unknown percentage.

Randomized tech trees (as an option to be selected pregame) would be a great feature but I think it would be important that all players in the game have the same randomized techtree for balance purposes. This way you eliminate the "perfect build" and reward players who can make adjustments on the fly while still giving everyone the same opportunity.

What about different flavors of technology? Almost all SciFi 4X games I've played allow you to research lasers, tachyon, plasma, graviton, etc, weapons. Sometimes in parallel, sometimes they are sequential. Wouldn't it be nice to get essentially the same main benefit from lasers (+1/+5+10 damage, whatever), as well as some unique "laser-specific" perks, as you would get when researching tachyon technology - again (+1/+5/+10 damage), but with different perks.

Best way to implement some sort of randomization would be, like how different races have different race specific and at a glance, orange colored techs, they can throw in another color like purple in specific slots, and randomize them every game. But then again, I'd vote for more race specific techs rather than having some stuff randomized.

Best way to implement some sort of randomization would be, like how different races have different race specific and at a glance, orange colored techs, they can throw in another color like purple in specific slots, and randomize them every game. But then again, I'd vote for more race specific techs rather than having some stuff randomized.

true that it is complicated but this is the suggestion thread isnt it ^^

Random tech trees have a lot of problems associated with them. The largest is balancing and coding how techs will be decided to avoid hindering players at random. As has been stated economy techs are another issue.



Standard tech trees have their advantages as well, and with how weapons are implemented in Endless Space you get a bit of deviation. Your weapons research will become tied to what your enemies do, and everyone has a fair shot. Different faction perks also help make tech path decisions that help fight against "Everyone goes for the same optimal path".

Yeah the SOTS tech tree was one of the best parts of the game. It was balanced quite well, critical techs were always available, so you never felt like you were completely helpless because of a missing tech, but it was enough to stop you from being able to rely on the same 'optimum' path of stuff every game, which IMO makes something like Civ tech system utterly dull and uninspiring - it means every empire plays pretty much identically (after the initial techs have been superseded) every single game. Zzzzz.



Another good example of how to keep tech interesting is MoO1, which also had had random techs missing from your tree each turn (although you could always trade or steal them from other races in MoO1, something that was much harder to achieve in SOTS).



It definitely makes the game more replayable. Not sure ES's tech game is going to provide much lasting interest once i'm sufficiently familiar with it.

I also find it kind of odd that you can see the entire tree right at the start of the game.

You don't get random tech research or choices on Alpha centauri, unless you select certain game settings before starting the game.



Aside from that, you cannot apply random tech tree to weapons. There are 3 types of weapons and defenses, and it is based on who has better offense/defense, also who can counter their defense and offense. Unless they add other types of weapons and defenses, no randomization can be done there (modules capable of defending against two/three types of weapons, or weapons capable of hitting two/three types of defenses).



You guys all say "SotS has a nice system!" and such, but you guys also forget one thing. On SotS, tech focus is based around ships, and designing better ships most of the time. You have dozens of choices to pick from if you cannot get a tech you want, in that aspect. Since you don't build anything on the systems/planets, randomizer doesn't have a big impact on those stuff, unlike in this game. You cannot randomize a lot of stuff due to this. You mostly need all of the techs, aside from a few ones, and the current hierarchy of the technology isn't suited well for randomization.

i like the idea of not having all techs each game. It makes you think more and modify how you play.

What about the tech tree in Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri? I always liked the idea of giving a general direction for research and the advancements being randomly selected from the tree. More chaos and randomness without denying tech to other players.

in multiplayer games every one could get the same tree to have it balanced,

i would like it if the tech tree is black and i only see the possibilities but not the way how to reach it.

I don't see how this would work in a game that has custom races. Remember that SOTS uses predefined percentage chances for all of the predefined races. You more or less know what to expect from a given race.

I'm with this - an alternative might be to take the old MOO system of getting (semi-randomised) choices after each tech, retaining the older choices (at least it seemed that way to me, could be wrong).

If you could win with just 1 upgrade (period) then there are serious balance issues irregardless of the tech tree's design format.

i still dont like the idea

consider this scenario

your opponent is spaming uber misslies

but the good point defense/ chaff systems didnt appear on your tech tree

what do you do

not sure how I feel about this idea, but i'm leaning towards not liking it. dunno. it might make multiplayer unbalanced.

Styx wrote:
+1 for dynamic tech trees

SOTS was an awesome game, and the dynamic tech tree was one of the main reasons.

Yes, and I don't think I have seen another game that quite grasped it the same way, but I have high hopes for Endless Space

Either dynamic or the moo2 style gain/lose system

You research something but in return lose everything else on the same level (as in cant research it), in which case you have something to trade for with other races.

Altho this would be something nice if research techs truly meant something. I find myself a lot of times researching stuff only because it takes 1 turn.

+1 for dynamic tech trees

SOTS was an awesome game, and the dynamic tech tree was one of the main reasons.