treizoz wrote:
I don't like this idea, it would act like continents in the civ games where the ai typically fails to present a challenge to other continents. it would just slow the game down in a bad way by emphasizing turtling and long slogs

I see nothing wrong with turtling and long slog games in SP, thats why we finaly got The Automations to complement the all out rush factions we already got and many prefer and enjoy this playstyle. When thats said, i se no additional reason why turtling would benefit you more in a scenario like this than it would today. Actually it would be even more important to spread out and get yourself a good piece of the second galaxy as soon as it is possible to be able to compete.



By the way, the second galaxy could just as well be a tiny and old end-game galaxy as it could be another huge one. You should be able to choose the size/denity etc for the second galaxy just like you can do today with the starting galaxy. This could lead to an interesting claustrophobic experience and a welcome change of pace in the end. Sounds like good fun imo

This is a great idea and all, but I think its a little too large scale for some people.

There should be the ability to choose between wether you want a quick (small galaxy) medium (1 day large galaxy) or giant 2 week marathon in single or multiplayer. If you don't like huge maps don't play them but let the ones that do want it enjoy themselves and have their galaxy spanning empires. I don't see any reason why everyones tastes could be catered for in the game mechanics, they could make it that only the largest ship classes could cross galaxies instead of changing the research tree or add an engine mod.



I also love the idea of the random return of the endless (maybe when you start turning their machines on) as an event. They could have left our galaxy and gone to another possibly running from an even greater threat.

one bigger galaxy is better imo, like the Alternative Galaxy Generator mod.

Wouldn't have to be much worse than the current merging galaxies - just separate them, have half the races start in each galaxy and unable to face one another until they can go offroad. Sounds like a fun variant.

I'm loving these points as well-how about the new galaxy opens up late game (maybe only post victory?) and you get a single planet in an already (mostly) developed galaxy.

I.e. #you start with a single planet

#you (maybe, up for debate) get access to (some?) tech you've already developed

#the empires in this new galaxy all have multiple planets, and are quite away along the tech tree and already have relationships between them-there could be alliances and wars already going on!





P.s.thought of this after I'd written everything else up-if you choose the 2 galaxy option, the tech tree is restricted-I.e. no quadronix or siderite in your starting galaxy and certain techs (galactic brotherhood, hydrosequencing for example) are unavailable until you get to the second galaxy-which could only be unlocked after you reach victory conditions in the first galaxy.

It would make the SP sessions much more interesting and I kind of like Fridgeseal's idea... would be nice.

I'm all for options, but I do question whether this would the proper thing to focus on at this stage of development. I can see being able to transition into a second galaxy after achieving a win condition, and having that condition be blocked out for the second galaxy.

Fridgeseal wrote:


P.s.thought of this after I'd written everything else up-if you choose the 2 galaxy option, the tech tree is restricted-I.e. no quadronix or siderite in your starting galaxy and certain techs (galactic brotherhood, hydrosequencing for example) are unavailable until you get to the second galaxy-which could only be unlocked after you reach victory conditions in the first galaxy.

Like your thoughts of restricting certain techs until you reach the second galaxy. It`s always nice to have something to look forward to



Personally i would like it if you didn`t have to "win" the first galaxy before being able to travel to the next but rather implement new mid game space travel techs and be able to manage and travel between both galaxies at the same time. Although it surely would simplify some things like the CPU bottleneck dilemma.

I don't like this idea, it would act like continents in the civ games where the ai typically fails to present a challenge to other continents. it would just slow the game down in a bad way by emphasizing turtling and long slogs

Codename_Veers wrote:
Many people scream for some big-ass spacemonster or something comparable. Well how about a High-Tech-Faction like the Endless poping up as a little fleet in mid-/end-game and try to invade one of the territories. They have a good reason (perhaps fleeing from something, searching for arttifacts or something similar) but propose a real thread to anyone in the galaxy, since they are more evolved than anyone and start taking over your systems for "the good of the galaxy". There you have your big-ass-monster!

Sounds like Dread Lords to me. I don't understand why would anyone want to fight ridiculously overpowered stuff, if they're supposed to possess such threat to the current empires, you shouldn't be able to beat the, in the first place. Even if all the empires would form an alliance, the only difference would be more time needed to wipe them all out.

Well it wasn't my idea anyway. ^^ Just said that many people crave for catastrophes. But if alliance play could be improved to even coordinate multiple fleets to a specific degree (my Ping-idea to call for help for example), such an ivent could be managable.

Well, the idea is to have to do something after winning in the galaxy.



In the beginning of the game the galaxy is already separated to the regions, so the concept of "exploring new worlds" after applied casimir effect technology exists. Then, with exploration of free-travel technology the galaxy is again a solid body without regions.



What would be fun is having a parallel galaxy with own AIs and history that develops separately from you. And after discovery of the last technology you would be able to inject some of your fleets into it and "love and tolerate the S***" out of it's inhabitants. Or at least make influence on their life.

Codename_Veers wrote:
Well it wasn't my idea anyway. ^^

I know.



Anyway, if people crave for more galaxies, no objections as long as it's an option. I haven't even played on huge map yet, too many start systems to keep track of for me.

Thoto79 wrote:
By the way, the second galaxy could just as well be a tiny and old end-game galaxy as it could be another huge one. You should be able to choose the size/denity etc for the second galaxy just like you can do today with the starting galaxy. This could lead to an interesting claustrophobic experience and a welcome change of pace in the end. Sounds like good fun imo

I'll take two tiny ones with cheese, thank you!

Reading over this, I can agree that this would be a cool option for single player games. I also think it would be an interesting option for multiplayer games as an 'option'. I don't think most people would use it, but I have some close friends that I play with frequently and we would possibly try such a map out and even enjoy it. However, I think it would end up being too convoluted at the current pacing. Not because of game length so much, but because of how long people's turns would be. :\

treizoz wrote:
I don't like this idea, it would act like continents in the civ games where the ai typically fails to present a challenge to other continents. it would just slow the game down in a bad way by emphasizing turtling and long slogs

I agree with this.



For everyone that thinks the current galaxy is too small; have a look at this mod: /#/endless-space/forum/37-modding/thread/16276-released-alternativ-galaxy-generator

Thoto79 wrote:
I see nothing wrong with turtling and long slog games in SP, thats why we finaly got The Automations to complement the all out rush factions we already got and many prefer and enjoy this playstyle. When thats said, i se no additional reason why turtling would benefit you more in a scenario like this than it would today. Actually it would be even more important to spread out and get yourself a good piece of the second galaxy as soon as it is possible to be able to compete.



By the way, the second galaxy could just as well be a tiny and old end-game galaxy as it could be another huge one. You should be able to choose the size/denity etc for the second galaxy just like you can do today with the starting galaxy. This could lead to an interesting claustrophobic experience and a welcome change of pace in the end. Sounds like good fun imo

If you want a larger galaxy you can edit the xml or use a mod to make a galaxy as gigantic as you like. Adding in a second galaxy thats tiny or asymmetrical would seem to defeat the purpose, it would be just another constellation effectively with a much longer travel time.



Alternately an implementation of this idea IMO would be similar to the civ new world random maps, where you start off with all the players in a small area and have to "colonize" a distant foreign area for resources and space to expand. I havent gave much thought to how the home galaxy would prevent rushing in ES or it might just be necessary to give everyone a small home constellation far away from everyone else in a ring around the center "real" galaxy. Winning in that case would require conquering the center and then sending fleets to finish off homeworlds.



I have serious concerns over the gameplay mechanics of a second galaxy in terms of the quality of AI strategy, since this seems to be for SP afterall, and movement between galaxies. How long does it take to move between galaxies? Does it require a specific tech? If you use a wormhole for instant travel instead of a long flight, whats the point of even having a second unique galaxy?



tl;dr this idea doesnt really add much that generating a larger single galaxy couldnt provide and I dont believe it should be a priority for the dev team when so many more things are pressing.

prassel wrote:
I agree with this.



For everyone that thinks the current galaxy is too small; have a look at this mod: /#/endless-space/forum/37-modding/thread/16276-released-alternativ-galaxy-generator

I think some of you guys slightly missing the point of this suggestion, nevertheless great mod! Tnx for link

Thoto79 wrote:
I think some of you guys slightly missing the point of this suggestion, nevertheless great mod! Tnx for link

Not really, like someone else already posted, adding more galaxies would be no different than adding more constellations.

prassel wrote:
Not really, like someone else already posted, adding more galaxies would be no different than adding more constellations.

Sry did not mean to sound condescending i just feel that a galaxy as it is today, only bigger, won`t cut it.



I guess you can compare it to Islands or Continents in Civ because it would be very much the same in ES only here it would be a sea of lightyears to cross witch you will not be able to do without the right ship. Implement a special ship and/or tech before u can continue to explore. I would also very much like to see more than two galaxies linked together with techs/ships only available from the second galaxy to take me to the third and to be able to move freely between them and their galaxy unique strategic resources and later be able to obtain "The Intergalactic Globetrotter" archievement!



In short, make it vast and at the same time keep the tingling early game exploring sensation throughout

Either way, since it will make the game bigger, they have to implement multi-threading to the engine unless you want to play with massive lag.

Your right, multi cpu support is needed. The galaxy generator mod got it but I have noe clue if it is possible to implement in the vanilla game or if this would be an ultimate stumbling block. When that is said, i would rather play with several small galaxies than with one huge

Thoto79 wrote:
Your right, multi cpu support is needed. The galaxy generator mod got it but I have noe clue if it is possible to implement in the vanilla game or if this would be an ultimate stumbling block. When that is said, i would rather play with several small galaxies than with one huge

Only the Devs can do it since it's a game engine thing. The galaxy generator is not part of the game engine.

Igncom1 wrote:


Also, there is no endless remains or Dust in the other galaxy's, so why bother?

If the Endless were so badass, then I bet they have expanded across multiple galaxies.

I agree with you Codename_Veers, you make some valid points there.



Still, it remains a good idea and I'm all for it, even if this means that a couple of other things need looking at first, such as small bits and pieces which ensure that the games are lasting adventures/challenges.

I think that would cause the game to go on for too long, not only would there be travel time involved crossing such galaxies but it would create a "safe haven" for new colonies so you could not be wiped out if you were in jepordy.

kharza wrote:
I think that would cause the game to go on for too long, not only would there be travel time involved crossing such galaxies but it would create a "safe haven" for new colonies so you could not be wiped out if you were in jepordy.

I had singleplayer in mind, i agree that a multiplayer game of this scale could be hard to complete in one game session.



Regarding getting away from a obvious defeat with "safe heavens" in different galaxies, should`t this be just the same as it is today and dependent on what victory conditions u have chosen for the game?

That could be really interesting for singleplayer (not for mp!). Exspecially with the expanded Tech-Tree idea and a more late-game improvement that could be awesome.

I don't think it would make much since, considering the vast distances between stars is hard to comprehend, let alone galaxy's.



Also, there is no endless remains or Dust in the other galaxy's, so why bother?

Igncom1 wrote:
I don't think it would make much since, considering the vast distances between stars is hard to comprehend, let alone galaxy's.



Also, there is no endless remains or Dust in the other galaxy's, so why bother?

Naah, its amazing what scientists come up with in the deep future. You will learn to use the eXtreme Applied Casimir Effect that you unlocked in the tech tree and warp your way across space and time.. in no time. Not before this will we know if remains of the endless also is to be found in other galaxies.



Speaking of sciense and tech, i would like to see the same progression per galaxies as today with around 600 turns with two galaxies. With more than two galaxies i guess you will have an epic space adventure until CPU melts :P

Thoto79 wrote:
Naah, its amazing what scientists come up with in the deep future. You will learn to use the eXtreme Applied Casimir Effect that you unlocked in the tech tree and warp your way across space and time.. in no time. Not before this will we know if remains of the endless also is to be found in other galaxies.



Speaking of sciense and tech, i would like to see the same progression per galaxies as today with around 600 turns with two galaxies. With more than two galaxies i guess you will have an epic space adventure until CPU melts :P

Not sure if sarcastic, or genuine.

Igncom1 wrote:
Not sure if sarcastic, or genuine.

Guilty of unserious formulations but genuine interested in making the game greater in size and slower in progression.

I like the idea of a multi-galaxy SP option - why not, I'm sure some would love it and those who don't could just not enable it

n18991c wrote:
I like the idea of a multi-galaxy SP option - why not, I'm sure some would love it and those who don't could just not enable it

Right, shouldn`t be a problem for those who like smaller maps and quick games they just pick one galaxy like you can pick smaller galaxies today.



I don`t know much about programming games but i wouldn`t think it should be to big of a Dev job compared to all the other great things that allready have been implemented. The only new grafical implements in this case i guess would be a slightly different lay-out in the Exploration and Expansion and/or Science tech tree and new research icon(s).

Thoto79 wrote:
I don`t know much about programming games but i wouldn`t think it should be to big of a Dev job compared to all the other great things that allready have been implemented. The only new grafical implements in this case i guess would be a slightly different lay-out in the Exploration and Expansion and/or Science tech tree and new research icon(s).

I'm no programmer either, but I think that the real challenge wouldn't lie in creating a multi-galaxy feature but rather in creating it in a manner which doesn't overtax the average computer - triple size, for example, could really slow down a pc...

I fear the problem lies in something else. Since the game is setted in speed and challange for one galaxy only, there wood be no mechanics for more ongaming. Sure you could use the new galaxy to research the few left sciences, but it would get boring realy fast, since there would be nothing more to do than colonize planets and go to war. Untill then however, every other civilisation would have - if not already exterminated by the player - reaserched everything too and will have almost the same stats and the same ressources. If the other factions would not have exterminated the player by then, it would probably now start. For a second galaxy to play in we would need more features to ensure a prolonged gamining without getting bored.



That would mean new scientific breaktroughs, more diplomacy features and new possibilitsies to keep the game running. So before we even discuss the possibility of a second galaxy, there must first be some improvements for prolonged gaming and new goals for endgame - a new way to enjoy beeing like the endless and perhaps making the same mistakes again that led to their dissapearance or to find the way the endless went...

I find the one galaxy (even huge with high density) to be pretty shallow and small, it only takes a few hours to explore it all. I would love to see the option of more than one galaxy and a mid game science option that allows travel between them.



This and expanding the 300 tech-turns so it multiplies with amount of galaxies would do wonders for the games replay value and epicness



What do you guys think?

Yeah, I still like it, too. I think this is just a question of game-improvement (evolution). When we take some other stepps first, we could achieve this idea in the end, too. But perhaps the Developers don't want to make it THAT epic/THAT big, what would be understanable, and perhaps give the Modders the chance to do it - but propably with less succes.



So I think this has to be improved bevore we can add a second galaxy:



1. Imrpoved Tech-Trees. We would need to give the player the opportunity to play as an endless civilisation, facing new techs and problems alike.



2. Improved AI Mechanics and winning conditions: Some victory-possibilities wouldn't make much sense any more, so we would need a better AI to survive trough the endgame (perhaps making attacking grown factions more exhausting and complicated, so they survive more time in late-game) and new victory-conditions for endless game like making the scientific victory just a first step in a 2 - 3 point agenda.



3. The second Galaxy should be activated when the first steps of victory have been taken (since otherwise it would use up all ressources of your computer, making the game veeeeery slow!), and be already colonized by either small other factions (subfactions and perhaps one to two main-factions, probably not have been in the first galaxy) or some big mainfactions, perhaps even giving room for some of your enemys which reached the needed tech-level as well, and appear in the new galaxy, too. The Tech Level of your first galaxy foes should be the about same as yours, while the second galaxy-factions should be in mid-game-tech.



4. What would happen with the first galaxy? It would eat up all ressources of the computer to maintain two galaxys. But it would also be very lame to abandon the galaxy when you haven't conquered it yet - or perhaps you established a fully functional and stable diplomatic system (a additional victory condition?). Perhaps "Second Galaxy" could be used for fleeing the first galaxy, when on the way to loose against other factions. But perhaps the Factions in galaxy 2 should just be new factions like the endless, the virtuals and so on, making you the newcommer, forgetting about the first galaxy....



And with these suggestions I got another idea:



Many people scream for some big-ass spacemonster or something comparable. Well how about a High-Tech-Faction like the Endless poping up as a little fleet in mid-/end-game and try to invade one of the territories. They have a good reason (perhaps fleeing from something, searching for arttifacts or something similar) but propose a real thread to anyone in the galaxy, since they are more evolved than anyone and start taking over your systems for "the good of the galaxy". There you have your big-ass-monster!

Thanks for great posts guys!



I couldn`t agree more with your points Veers, they are all valid imo.



My first thought was to plain and simple just open up for more than one galaxy to have bigger map(s) to play on and at the same time halve (is that even a word?:P) the industry/science output so the game progresses half as fast with twice the space to explore (or more).

As it is now i feel like all games, even the bigger ones with all factions and a huge galaxy size, is made for quick multiplayer games, not epix 4X adventures.



But as u express a lot of factors comes to mind and they are maby some things, or even a lot of things, that should or must be in place before this would work. Looking forward to se how this game develops and maby some day it will be ready for an expansion like this.



Anyhow, at least now the devs now that some people would find something like this interesting

n18991c wrote:
I like the idea of a multi-galaxy SP option -

Agreed!



I suggested this very same thing in the Expansion thread.

I don't want to play for just 200 turns, I want to play my empire for days and days and days!

Furthermore, I want the next galaxy to be more advanced than the one I just left so that I can have a new challenge.

I too liked this idea from when it was first mentioned and voted for it. Thoto79 ...Well done !! You will be pleased to know this will be added to summary list tomorrow for the Dev Team consideration

I doubt that linked galaxies would work unless it was relatively easy for all players in a game to reach it.



The problem I see in it is the same problem with the Moon in Risk 2142: no one bothers going there at all, but as soon as someone steps foot on it; everyone scrambles and all-out-war begins over the Moon to prevent that one player for seizing all of it.

rudderbutt wrote:
I doubt that linked galaxies would work unless it was relatively easy for all players in a game to reach it.



The problem I see in it is the same problem with the Moon in Risk 2142: no one bothers going there at all, but as soon as someone steps foot on it; everyone scrambles and all-out-war begins over the Moon to prevent that one player for seizing all of it.

Wait, that actually sounds fun.

jetkar wrote:
I too liked this idea from when it was first mentioned and voted for it. Thoto79 ...Well done !! You will be pleased to know this will be added to summary list tomorrow for the Dev Team consideration

Wow, thank you good sir, i`ll keep my fingers crossed then

jetkar wrote:
I too liked this idea from when it was first mentioned and voted for it. Thoto79 ...Well done !! You will be pleased to know this will be added to summary list tomorrow for the Dev Team consideration

Nice one, good to hear!

This suggestion has been added to the Summary List under Game Play > General > Linked Galaxies for the Dev Team consideration

Yeeeehaw! But don't forget about the points needing to be done first!!!

Wouldn't it be easier with a bigger galaxy? At least that is, IMO, a much simpler solution (and probably easier and more balanced for players).

The Alternative Galaxy Generator mod can make a HUGE (8000+ solar systems) galaxy, but gameplay performance is severely bottlenecked (constant 10 FPS) by the Unity engine because it is only single-threaded as I showed in this tech-support thread here.