metaldream wrote:
Can I add more to the stuff I would like to see beside espionage(spies and counter-intelligence)

*allies can coordinate attacks against enemy (I can set tartget, or my ally(A.I.), and know which planet to attack)

*making a federetaion or some sort of alliance where you and your allies could share money together, for example: 25% of your dust will go to allies, and vice-versa. Maybe OP, but you get the idea





I think these would make a great addition to the game

I especially like these ideas. I normally am very reluctant to join an alliance but these would make them a lot more useful. It would also make adventure heroes useful.

Nosferatiel wrote:
Let's just summarize: Desperation drives people to make the weirdest alliances one can imagine.

Not just desperation, the Crusades united all of (Catholic) Europe even though they had their own wars going on to reclaim the "Holy Land"

stasik28 wrote:
Not just desperation, the Crusades united all of (Catholic) Europe even though they had their own wars going on to reclaim the "Holy Land"

Sure, but nothing like that is happening in my game. It's a weird dynamic. The whole diplomacy aspect of the game has to be reworked and fleshed out. Again, that needs to have it's own expansion, and if it comes with some other minor additions and perks, I know I'd pay without any complaints. I think with some additions, re-working and updates, ES can be the clear winner in the genre for years to come.

Stealth_Hawk wrote:
Alliance mechanics need a major Overhaul (maybe)



1) Allied fleet support/joint military operations

2) Joint research capabilities

3) Allied victory conditions



Just to name a few

These are good points, specially "allied victory conditions". I like them.

Nasarog wrote:
Sure, but nothing like that is happening in my game. It's a weird dynamic. The whole diplomacy aspect of the game has to be reworked and fleshed out. Again, that needs to have it's own expansion, and if it comes with some other minor additions and perks, I know I'd pay without any complaints. I think with some additions, re-working and updates, ES can be the clear winner in the genre for years to come.

Imagine if in game, you have like 3 UE fighting, and like... a planet named Earth (just as example) is attacked by like, cravers.... and they all unite to kill the cravers

Or like if the US and USSR during the cold war decided to instead of pointing the guns at each-other, to instead shoot everybody else in the room.........which they kinda did.



The problem here for the AI is that if their guns end up empty or their 'friend' points to shoot at them first, it's game over.

Can I add more to the stuff I would like to see beside espionage(spies and counter-intelligence)

*allies can coordinate attacks against enemy (I can set tartget, or my ally(A.I.), and know which planet to attack)

*making a federetaion or some sort of alliance where you and your allies could share money together, for example: 25% of your dust will go to allies, and vice-versa. Maybe OP, but you get the idea

*able to make weaker faction in the game your "vasal" state. Let's say enemy or neutral faction is left with only 3-4 planets, and you are much stronger than they are. You can propose to make them part of your empire, as in, they will work for you (give you money, share sicence and industiral potention) and you offer them protection instead, or simply you are offering them a way to survive and not to be destroyed by you

*make influence matters even more, if your influence ring extends ove enemies colony or outpost, they can make popullation of that planet like you more and rebel against their current owners and join your empire. Maybe sowers and cravers are to be immune to this effect?

*also making a.i. to think better is always a must.



I think these would make a great addition to the game

stasik28 wrote:
Imagine if in game, you have like 3 UE fighting, and like... a planet named Earth (just as example) is attacked by like, cravers.... and they all unite to kill the cravers

Sure, that would make sense. Now if these 3 factions for some reason killed off 2 U.E. faction within their alliance that would sorta make sense. But, U.E./Sheredyn joining forces with Hissho to kill other U.E./Sheredyn factions and not one another is a little harder to stomach. No?

Igncom1 wrote:
Or like if the US and USSR during the cold war decided to instead of pointing the guns at each-other, to instead shoot everybody else in the room.........which they kinda did.



The problem here for the AI is that if their guns end up empty or their 'friend' points to shoot at them first, it's game over.

Except that hardly happens in ES, if it did, it would make sense. That's where espionage comes in. You try to find the hole sin their armor and cause a rift between them.

metaldream wrote:
Can I add more to the stuff I would like to see beside espionage(spies and counter-intelligence)

*allies can coordinate attacks against enemy (I can set tartget, or my ally(A.I.), and know which planet to attack)

*making a federetaion or some sort of alliance where you and your allies could share money together, for example: 25% of your dust will go to allies, and vice-versa. Maybe OP, but you get the idea

*able to make weaker faction in the game your "vasal" state. Let's say enemy or neutral faction is left with only 3-4 planets, and you are much stronger than they are. You can propose to make them part of your empire, as in, they will work for you (give you money, share sicence and industiral potention) and you offer them protection instead, or simply you are offering them a way to survive and not to be destroyed by you

*make influence matters even more, if your influence ring extends ove enemies colony or outpost, they can make popullation of that planet like you more and rebel against their current owners and join your empire. Maybe sowers and cravers are to be immune to this effect?

*also making a.i. to think better is always a must.



I think these would make a great addition to the game

All good ideas, and something that I would assume would be included in an expansion fleshing out diplomacy and espionage, except for the A.I. thing. I would hope that with each expansion and update they tweak the A.I. to play better, and not cheat.

metaldream wrote:
Can I add more to the stuff I would like to see beside espionage(spies and counter-intelligence)

*allies can coordinate attacks against enemy (I can set tartget, or my ally(A.I.), and know which planet to attack)

*making a federetaion or some sort of alliance where you and your allies could share money together, for example: 25% of your dust will go to allies, and vice-versa. Maybe OP, but you get the idea

*able to make weaker faction in the game your "vasal" state. Let's say enemy or neutral faction is left with only 3-4 planets, and you are much stronger than they are. You can propose to make them part of your empire, as in, they will work for you (give you money, share sicence and industiral potention) and you offer them protection instead, or simply you are offering them a way to survive and not to be destroyed by you

*make influence matters even more, if your influence ring extends ove enemies colony or outpost, they can make popullation of that planet like you more and rebel against their current owners and join your empire. Maybe sowers and cravers are to be immune to this effect?

*also making a.i. to think better is always a must.



I think these would make a great addition to the game

All of those are good, and some are explanations of what I said. Save the Alliance Mechanism! lol jk

Nasarog wrote:
That could be in another expansion, but a temporary work around would be a re-evaluation of the alliance when it automatically expires every 30 turns (arbitrary#). If one member significantly benefits from the alliance, then the other member/s would be suspicious as relations would adjust the way they normally do.

Stealth_Hawk wrote:
Alliance mechanics need a major Overhaul (maybe)



1) Allied fleet support/joint military operations

2) Joint research capabilities

3) Allied victory conditions



Just to name a few

Both these suggestions make far more sense than the status quo as is... I hope the devs are watching and they take them up to improve this part of the game...

Nasarog wrote:
Except that hardly happens in ES, if it did, it would make sense. That's where espionage comes in. You try to find the hole sin their armor and cause a rift between them.

Well like I said, they are both currently rebounding off the diplomatic benefits of fighting the same enemy, riding it forward, but once that runs out the hate gained by having close proximity systems should start a war.



So yea, rebounding off the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" to keep the alliance going, whether or not the AI knows of this or not, that's most likely is what is happening.

Igncom1 wrote:
Well like I said, they are both currently rebounding off the diplomatic benefits of fighting the same enemy, riding it forward, but once that runs out the hate gained by having close proximity systems should start a war.



So yea, rebounding off the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" to keep the alliance going, whether or not the AI knows of this or not, that's most likely is what is happening.

I think that just happened in my game, but it took too long. The Cravers were vanquished a long time ago, and this alliance kept steam rolling everyone. The reason I was safe is that I had all kinds of agreements with them, but now all that is up. I am trying to figure out how I'll win this bad boy.

If you can blockade their dust systems, you could make their fleets disband due to the lack of funding.

Igncom1 wrote:
If you can blockade their dust systems, you could make their fleets disband due to the lack of funding.

If it came down to it, I would start scrapping improvements before ships in a time of war. But thats just me.

Nasarog wrote:
I think that just happened in my game, but it took too long. The Cravers were vanquished a long time ago, and this alliance kept steam rolling everyone. The reason I was safe is that I had all kinds of agreements with them, but now all that is up. I am trying to figure out how I'll win this bad boy.

Well, I don`t know if they fixed this bug, but the AI don't seem to attack systems.. I saw this LONG ago so it might be fixed... but the AI are most pretty horrible. The best you can do is create fortress-planets on your outer edges by adding a lot of planetary defenses and ship production bonuses. And can you send me that save? :P I want to play that desperate situation sounds fun

stasik28 wrote:
Well, I don`t know if they fixed this bug, but the AI don't seem to attack systems.. I saw this LONG ago so it might be fixed... but the AI are most pretty horrible. The best you can do is create fortress-planets on your outer edges by adding a lot of planetary defenses and ship production bonuses. And can you send me that save? :P I want to play that desperate situation sounds fun

I play on a MAC, you?

Ah yea, I forgot... I'm have windows... do they really have too big of differences?

stasik28 wrote:
Ah yea, I forgot... I'm have windows... do they really have too big of differences?

Yes, no maybe? To be honest, you'd have to ask the dev's because I'm not sure what differences there are in the ports.

What a stalemate or Mutually Assured Destruction?.........or both?



Also how would you gauge a stalemate? Would it being allied to everyone else for long enough that the game finally declarers that a galactic federation if forming? Or that a never-ending passive aggressive cold war has occurred?

Actually, I just wish all the other AI players would realize what the two strongest factions are doing and band together in a 6 on 2 alliance.



But I see your point. More espionage than 'Science leaking' should be in the game.



P.S. Game Design proposal thread?

Stealth_Hawk wrote:
Actually, I just wish all the other AI players would realize what the two strongest factions are doing and band together in a 6 on 2 alliance.



But I see your point. More espionage than 'Science leaking' should be in the game.



P.S. Game Design proposal thread?

I just have to say that there are tons of espionage proposals. Please don't post another one, better unearth a viable main thread.

I wasn't trying to start a new thread per se. I am very frustrated right now. I have lost 3 games in a row because the two strongest factions that should never find themselves in a permanent alliance are wiping the this corner of the galaxy with all of us.



I love this game, but there are fundamental things that need serious consideration. Individual A.I. personality that is unique and plays a certain way is one of them, and espionage would be very important to that.



I am about to put the game down and wait because of how mad I am at the moment.



On Edit: Sheredyn and Hissho would never ally with one another for any period of time unless they were fighting off a major threat. The long alliance makes the Sheredyn/U.E. much more powerful than Hissho could ever be. It would not be in the Hisshos interest to do that.

Well killing the weak is the best policy.



But it would be cool to have a diplo modifier for making everyone hate the strongest power more and like everyone else much more.

Igncom1 wrote:
Well killing the weak is the best policy.



But it would be cool to have a diplo modifier for making everyone hate the strongest power more and like everyone else much more.

Here's the thing, how are they even allied. I would think that this alliance would be similar to Klingons and Romulans allying together. They'd do it for a short time to fight the Dominion, but other than that, they hate one another.



I am not the dominion.

Nasarog wrote:
Here's the thing, how are they even allied. I would think that this alliance would be similar to Klingons and Romulans allying together. They'd do it for a short time to fight the Dominion, but other than that, they hate one another.



I am not the dominion.

Oh, like a 'wartime' alliance. AKA we hate eachother, but we have to work together to survive. Hey, what about an orange alliance symbol between the holograms in the diplomacy window? that could work.



btw Borg and Federation are an even better example than Klingon and Romulan

Well they keep rebounding off of the benefit of "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" and possibly into a cold war effect where the constant crushing of the smaller powers is necessary to keep the powers in competition with each other (Less risk getting behind) but because they are expending forces on it they can't afford to get into a much more dangerous war.



Once every one else is gone and conquered it is likely they still won't war due to the possibility of losing such a war, leading to another type of victory.



Losing is unacceptable, so why risk it on such a war that they could actually lose?



Galactic stalemate.

Nasarog wrote:


On Edit: Sheredyn and Hissho would never ally with one another for any period of time unless they were fighting off a major threat. The long alliance makes the Sheredyn/U.E. much more powerful than Hissho could ever be. It would not be in the Hisshos interest to do that.

Smurfs (Ultramarines) / Tau Alliance much anyone? (Warhammer 40K ref)

Igncom1 wrote:
Well they keep rebounding off of the benefit of "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" and possibly into a cold war effect where the constant crushing of the smaller powers is necessary to keep the powers in competition with each other (Less risk getting behind) but because they are expending forces on it they can't afford to get into a much more dangerous war.



Once every one else is gone and conquered it is likely they still won't war due to the possibility of losing such a war, leading to another type of victory.



Losing is unacceptable, so why risk it on such a war that they could actually lose?



Galactic stalemate.

OMG. That victory condition would be AWESOME!! (especially considering the relatively small tech tree) You're a genius Igncom1

We need that bad, really bad. In my current game, the two strongest empires, Sheredyn and Hissho have been allied for 50% of the game and they are systematically eliminating everyone. There has to be a way to break that alliance up.



Espionage would be it. The events already exist as random events, but I wish we could actually instigate them ourselves.

Nasarog wrote:
Here's the thing, how are they even allied. I would think that this alliance would be similar to Klingons and Romulans allying together. They'd do it for a short time to fight the Dominion, but other than that, they hate one another.



I am not the dominion.

as a Treki i have to say that the Romulans would never have joined the Klingons-Federation Alliance if Captain.Sisko didnt had murdered the romulan ambassador and blackmailed the Dominion for it.



The Dominion would have won the War without doubt. (and that even without any reinforcements from the Gamma Quadrant...pfff dam Prophets always hated them -.-)



i dont think Picard would have done that, Janeway Yes,Archer Yes...Kirk...Yes(cause Spok would have told him so^^) ; /





so without any Heroes or espionage yes i agree its most unlikely that factions witch hate each other so much would ever ally themselves.

And if there is no Sisko...even not when the Dominion comes.

Sovereign wrote:
as a Treki i have to say that the Romulans would never have joined the Klingons-Federation Alliance if Captain.Sisko didnt had murdered the romulan ambassador and blackmailed the Dominion for it.



The Dominion would have won the War without doubt. (and that even without any reinforcements from the Gamma Quadrant...pfff dam Prophets always hated them -.-)



i dont think Picard would have done that, Janeway Yes,Archer Yes...Kirk...Yes(cause Spok would have told him so^^) ; /





so without any Heroes or espionage yes i agree its most unlikely that factions witch hate each other so much would ever ally themselves.

And if there is no Sisko...even not when the Dominion comes.

Sisko and ST logic aside, I used the ST universe as an example of an unlikely alliance in a case of dire need. It didn't last long, and while it was underway, each faction was looking to get an advantage over it's "allies" and it had contingency plans in place for the eventual collapse.



Back to ES: no such mechanic really exists now. Each A.I. plays the same as every other A.I. without a single noticeable distinction and espionage isn't really there. There is an underlying current of espionage, but it's not under your control. One of the only things that the ES A.I. does right is that it doesn't distinguish at all between a human and another A.I. player. At least there is that.

stasik28 wrote:
Smurfs (Ultramarines) / Tau Alliance much anyone? (Warhammer 40K ref)







OMG. That victory condition would be AWESOME!! (especially considering the relatively small tech tree) You're a genius Igncom1

Yup, that would be one example. Another would be working with the Eldar against Chaos or Necrons.

Perhaps the Khaak allying with the Xenons is a better example...

Mhhhh Borg and Federation made temp. alliance against species 8472

Let's just summarize: Desperation drives people to make the weirdest alliances one can imagine.

Nosferatiel wrote:
Let's just summarize: Desperation drives people to make the weirdest alliances one can imagine.

Yes, when the situation calls for it. These A.I. are forming these alliances for the whole game. The various parties then turn around and attack of the players that are of the same species as they are.



WHy would a Hissho and Sheredyn form an alliance to wipe out another Hissho and Sheredyn faction. Why would a long term alliance like this occur when both factions are going for the same victory conditions?

Nasarog wrote:
Yes, when the situation calls for it. These A.I. are forming these alliances for the whole game. The various parties then turn around and attack of the players that are of the same species as they are.



WHy would a Hissho and Sheredyn form an alliance to wipe out another Hissho and Sheredyn faction. Why would a long term alliance like this occur when both factions are going for the same victory conditions?

Alliance mechanics need a major Overhaul (maybe)



1) Allied fleet support/joint military operations

2) Joint research capabilities

3) Allied victory conditions



Just to name a few

Stealth_Hawk wrote:
Alliance mechanics need a major Overhaul (maybe)



1) Allied fleet support/joint military operations

2) Joint research capabilities

3) Allied victory conditions



Just to name a few

That could be in another expansion, but a temporary work around would be a re-evaluation of the alliance when it automatically expires every 30 turns (arbitrary#). If one member significantly benefits from the alliance, then the other member/s would be suspicious as relations would adjust the way they normally do.