Another issue that I have is the modular design that every ship is slapped on with, is just tedious and not needed at all. Certain classes of ships play specific roles and putting scouting sensors on a cruiser or battleship is just an option that does not need to be explored.



Swapping out weapon types for another is perfectly fine, but there is only so much you can do with a system like this and at some point it is just going to get redundant and time consuming. This will be very apparent when playing online and you are taking up time every time you reach a new tech level or need to make an alteration because your enemy altered his/her fleet.



Take Star Ruler, as an example for modular ship designs taken to an extreme. Many times I sat there, with the game paused spending hours tweaking my builds putting more time into building ships than actually playing the game!



So how about this for a compromise, save that tedious modular design for those flagships I mentioned while smaller vessels will all have a clear and defined purpose making that learning curve look a little less steep for players. It is one ship that can be altered to fill a specific role that fits the players style or needs at the time. Let players have access to specific Flagship hull types like spinal hulls where the main gun is housed internally and fire from the front.



As for the other classes here are some suggestions with a quick summary.



Strike craft = fighters and bombers are surgical weapons that can find the weak spots of larger vessels and exploit them bypassing defenses like shields.



Frigates = Recon and electronic warfare, potential for espionage like running sabotage missions or deploying agents planetside.



Corvettes = The smallest of the combat classes, fast and hard to hit the corvettes strength is in its ability to evade incoming fire and while responding with rapid attack weapons.



Destroyers = Do not let their small size fool you for the Destroyer packs one hell of a punch with their close range torpedoes and the speed pull it off. They are also some of the best ships for anti missile/strike craft forming picket lines and screening incoming enemy's.



Cruisers = The larger Cruiser sacrifices speed for more firepower and thicker armor making it quite the scrapper over the thinly armored Destroyers and Corvettes. They are the backbone of any fleet combining a well rounded combination of armor, speed and firepower.



Battle cruisers = They offer the great firepower and the thickest armor at the cost of speed and being an easy target to aim for with its size. Great for applying pressure in line battles and a standout class for leading blockades.

I love the flagship idea. It would be nice to have one or a small number of ships which have a little more 'character' and are more than just game pieces.

I'm still pretty new to the game, only picked it up a couple days ago but I definitely would like to see more done with the combat. Formations, perhaps good bonuses for fleet composition, and flagships would all be good imo. I think the carrier idea is a bit harder to implement then most people realize though.



The combat is a joy to watch, getting a little more involved with it than the commands and trying to counter the enemy would not be a bad thing at all. And for sure I'd like to see us as the players given more of a reason to have a diversified fleet rather than just all of the best possible ships we can make.

well, watching the combat may be fun at the beginning but, in the long run, it gets pretty repetitive. I've got the impression to watch the same battle over and over again. The very limited interaction the game provides in the combat model is essentially luck based and the real time implementation works more like an unnecessary constraint on the player. Most probably it won't fundamentally change at this late development stage, and it's really a shame, because apart from combat ES is a good game, and a more refined approach to combat, maybe similar to what dominions 3 did - the ability to define groups, formations and roles -, would have resulted in a really great game

I actually like the combat a lot as-is. It's slightly more complex than say, Civ, while still being reasonably quick. But I do agree that it gets a bit repetitive to throw up defense screens 3 times in a row and then sit back.



I think rather than sweeping changes to the entire edifice, the card system could just be tweaked. There are a lot of possibilities there that really only require tweaking game data rather than overhauling the entire system.



You could, for instance, include cards that can only be played in a certain order. Say, "All Power To Weapons" during long range followed by "Volley" or whatever in medium, giving you a chance to get badly hurt one round only to end it the next. You could have cards that only affect a ship if it's orbiting a friendly or an enemy planet. You could have race-specific cards, or hero-type-specific cards, you could even include formations as cards to be played during the arrival phase. Obviously the balancing of everything could get a little wooly, but I really think the only thing combat needs is a bit more strategic depth in terms of possible openings and maybe the ability to respond dynamically with new cards after the beginning of a round.



Another issue is that right now there's little benefit in doing anything but tossing up all possible protection on your ships every round. If you win, the enemy is still dead regardless of what round you defeated them on. If there was some sort of benefit to a speedy victory, it might make tactical decisions carry more weight. Though I suppose that might also just mean a big push for torpedo boats.



Edit: This is only tangentially related but: please get some nice beam laser effects! Man I know it's probably just a shitload of work to overhaul but come on. Beam lasers look awesome! I was so disappointed by the little blasters.

You know I don't like the idea of Carriers and fighters, it's over done and cliche in sci-fi space battles. I like the fact that this game only has big ships flying around pummeling each other



The other points though I agree on, allowing the player more interaction with a battle as well as a free camera is important. The flagship idea is cool as well and unique as far as this kind of game goes.



Personally I would just like larger fleets IN GENERAL you know, more than just 4 big ships on either side floating around pummeling each other, I mean huge fleets would be nice given that modern systems should be able to handle it easily enough Say a couple of dozen ships per side? It would just be so much more epic!



It would also give the player the ability to actually outnumber the enemy as it is right now both sides tend to be restricted to the same fleet size which means a battle can be a meatgrinder of sending whole FLEETS to their death trying to whittle down a numerically inferior foe because of the luck of the dice.

I actually like the quick style of the the combat. The battles of f.e MoO 2 where nice but tedious in the long run. I played that game for years but I started to use AutoCombat pretty soon because those battles between tons of titans/battleships would take forever (Well sometimes if I felt like playing a Huge space opera of lasers, torpedos, fighter crafts, ... I played a tactical fight)



What I don't like is this 0% or 100% effectiveness RPS thing of the dmg and armor values. A tech- and lvlwise inferior battlegroup can utterly destroy a superior one when they are equipped with the counter weapons. So you have to check every fleet that comes in sensor range on every front for its weapon/armor composition and hope that nothing reaches you from outside your sensor range or behind a wormhole (Which in lategame is easily possible because of the high movement engines).



And even if you catch it at the right moment if you just had to refit one front .. and are unlucky and the same thing happens at another front too (or a human player was just faking it) and you don't have the dust to refit again you can only run away. So the work of hours (tons of victories, building up a superior fleet, researching) can be undone by cheap, quick suicide squad (all weapons no armor) of counter equipped cruisers...

StK wrote:
I actually like the quick style of the the combat.

Why does everyone think that I am trying to purpose that battles should be long slogs. I like the time span currently in place with Endless Space the only time the battles should be a little longer is when flag ships are involved but i am talking maybe 15-30 seconds here. Fast battles make for fast turns that are critical for online play and keeping players engaged and not groaning about another fight that needs to be baby sat for 5 minutes with 3 more fights coming down the pipe.

StK wrote:
What I don't like is this 0% or 100% effectiveness RPS thing of the dmg and armor values.

The max should be 80-85% at most, making even stacking all the armor in the world wont stop your ships from still taking punishment Shields deplete, armor warps and guns miss. Setting a limit on the mitigation means that it will be impossible to build absolute 100% counters to certain weapon types allowing for more flexibility in fleets.

@Vellarain

1. I actually didn't mean your suggestions would prolong i just wanted to say that I kind of like the speed of the battle the way it is.



2. is about how the combat system is right now. And thats not exactly what I meant what I meant is: shield only help vs beams against nothing else, flak vs torpedoes and armor vs kinetic and if you don't have the right combination your ships get blown out of the sky because when you meet your counter no lvl and no realistic tech advantage will help you.. your ships will be taken out by an in most respects inferior force. And I think doing well during buildup and early battles should be rewarded and not countered so easily.



As long as this is changed I'm happy.. what you suggested would be icing on the cake however (^^,)

Great thread, looking forward to reading these suggestions.

Here's my to cents on the topic :

1) Carriers - I, for one, am not so sure if the game should have them. Think about it - is it feasible for a fighter that must be small to carry a large weapon to damage the bigger ships and a large engine to make it fast and to give it the necessary range in space? The way battle is implemented in ES reminded me of the ship-of-the-wall battle of 18-th century. Fighters just don't fit in it.

2) Flagship - Now that is a great idea! We can make flagship not uber-weapon in themselves, but allow the to give a large att/def bonus to the other ship in the fleet. I mean, a flagship isn't necessary the ship with the biggest cannons, it the ship with the best c4 abilities (command, control, communications, computers). Also, we can link the fleet-commanding hero to the flagship. If it's destroyed, so is the hero.

3) Formation - In short, formations are a must! In my view, the must give several positive and negative bonuses each (line of battle - +10% to firepower, -10% maneuverability, sphere - +15% defense, -5% accuracy, and so on)



What do you think?

hurleybird wrote:
OP is correct, rock paper scissors isn't very ideal. Combat and ship design should resemble MoO more, Galciv less.

Yeah i don't fancy the rock paper scissor combat all that much either.

MammothIL wrote:
Here's my to cents on the topic :

1) Carriers - I, for one, am not so sure if the game should have them. Think about it - is it feasible for a fighter that must be small to carry a large weapon to damage the bigger ships and a large engine to make it fast and to give it the necessary range in space? The way battle is implemented in ES reminded me of the ship-of-the-wall battle of 18-th century. Fighters just don't fit in it.

2) Flagship - Now that is a great idea! We can make flagship not uber-weapon in themselves, but allow the to give a large att/def bonus to the other ship in the fleet. I mean, a flagship isn't necessary the ship with the biggest cannons, it the ship with the best c4 abilities (command, control, communications, computers). Also, we can link the fleet-commanding hero to the flagship. If it's destroyed, so is the hero.

3) Formation - In short, formations are a must! In my view, the must give several positive and negative bonuses each (line of battle - +10% to firepower, -10% maneuverability, sphere - +15% defense, -5% accuracy, and so on)



What do you think?

Ships of the wall, sure. Like in Weber's Honorverse novels. Fighters work there too. They may be fragile eggshells, but they are damn hard to HIT eggshells. Also cheaper to loose then destroyers or cruisers.

Well even in World War 2 battles between ships were line battles with full broadsides being exchanged, Carriers and fighter craft were still a new concept but proved their worth then. I imagine that In space the same steps would gradually be taken considering that you are starting not as an established galactic empire but a fledgling civilization just breaking out into the stars. Complicated concepts like space borne carriers and spinal mounted battleships (basically a ship built around a huge weapon system.) and dry dock space stations would come much later, carriers especially.

Vellarain wrote:
spinal mounted battleships (basically a ship built around a huge weapon system.)

Do want.



Dry dock space stations would likely come *before* starships due to practical considerations. Building a starship that never has to enter atmosphere is considerably less complicated than one that does.

Updated the front page post and made an index of ideas that I will be putting forward.



So far I fleshed out some Class concept ships that fit a navy theme of the untied empire defining roles of each type but not including variant types of each class... yet. Ill try to get more in depth with the weapon systems because right now everything is just more of the same, and that needs to change for combat to really stand out. Defenses are going to get the same treatment, its not just shields, armor and flak.

1000 times yes. This is the direction that combat needs to go. Especially in regards to carriers and the necessity of diverse fleet composition.

oh for the love of god, there is a character limit on posts... So much for making a nice tidy list of features for this thread. Ok so here is some Kinetic Weapons, enjoy!





Weapons



While there are three main categories of weapon in the game, but that pretty much sums up the three weapons right there with no variation at all. This is something that needs to change for deeper tactical game play with more options for each weapon type.



Kinetic



Kinetic weapons come in the greatest variety, the concept is simple, hurling hard objects into the enemy ship to punch holes in it. The ammo type can range from huge rocks to metal slugs or even a high explosive warhead. Even the firing system can vary wildly using primitive explosive charges or magnets to even ramming devices can be used to hurl the round out of the barrel. Here is a short list of weapon types that can be found on ships and their primary role.



characteristics of Kinetic rounds:



- Volley fire for target saturation.

- Shells have mass and can disrupt aim when connecting.

- guns can fire more rapidly than other weapon types but at reduced accuracy.

- ammo needs to be stored and depending on its characteristics can detonate if struck.



Auto cannon: While it might be the most basic variant or the Kinetic type it is still a reliable and effective weapon that can be seen on almost all classes of ship at one point. Usually loaded with multiple rounds this gun will fire in short bursts at its target to form a group of hits or re-adjust if the firing solution is off. Round types can range from solid slugs to anti armor round or high explosive shells.

Rate of fire: 50 RPM

Damage: Low

Accuracy: Average

Primary role: Ship to ship combat.

Most effective against: Destroyers to Cruisers.

Least effective against: Battle cruisers to Flagships.

Rapid gun or multi barrel gun: while firing much smaller ammunition this weapon is a belt fed gun that fires at a high rate of speed with only taking short breaks for cooling and reloading. This blistering rate of fire makes it one of the first anti missile and torpedo Point Defense Weapons but as strike craft evolve and join the fray is becomes a nightmare for smaller ships that can be lead into the stream of steel being output by the rapid gun.

Rate of Fire: 1000 RPM

Damage: Very low

Accuracy: High

Primary role: Anti missile

Most effective against: Missiles and Strike craft.

Least effective against: Anything larger than a Corvette.



Main Battery Cannon: This large Kinetic weapon fires large Singular rounds, the bigger the ship the bigger the Battery and its rounds. A Battery is a group of massed guns firing in unison at a single target to devastating effect. Multiple strikes in unison can cause the ship struck to list throwing off its aim or even shock the crew delaying any kind of response for a time!

Rate of fire: 5 RPM

Damage: High-Very high

Accuracy: Low-Average

Primary Role: Ship to Ship combat.

Most effective against: Cruisers and above.

Least Effective Against: Destroyers and below.



Spinal mounted Cannon: While the Main Battery Cannon variant is good against almost all large ships, the Spinal mounted Cannon is a siege breaker. This is a weapon with a ship built around it and lobs huge slugs that dwarf most Destroyers. This is not a gun seen used in ship to ship combat but when aimed at a planet or a space station this Kinetic variant will make short work of even the thickest armor in a single round!

Rate of fire: 1 RPM

Damage: Extreme

Accuracy: Average

Most Effective Against: Stationary targets.

Least Effective Against : Mobile targets.

I've invested less time so far (about 12 hours) but I must agree about the rock-paper-scissors. It's becoming a little dull, the only entertainment I get out of it is how much stronger my Craver ships are than everyone else's...



The idea of many different types of ships appeals to me. It goes well with formation, making so you can put fragile (but maybe more powerful) ships in the back, and a "Shield" ship in front. If anyone has played the Space RPG Infinite Space (DS), I think the formation/ships types/modules could pull a little from there. (That game still had R-P-S, which I didn't like.)

Gunfreak wrote:


Fast, is the way it's now.

Medium, half the time, all ships do and recive half damage and the time is extended to twice the length of how it is now.

Epic, this is half that time again, ships do and rescive half of the medium speed.,



I'm thinking in epic mode battles should last a maximum of 10 minutes, Also you have to have free camera control so you can watch what you want to watch and not just what the game tells you to watch

For multiplayer, we'll actually be wanting battles to be considerably shorter as a courtesy to all players, which is one of the advantages of the existing system over that of most games in the genre.