OP is correct, rock paper scissors isn't very ideal. Combat and ship design should resemble MoO more, Galciv less.

Thumbs up to both. You should be able to mount large or small guns on a dreadnaught though, and large guns should have a penalty to hit small ships and small guns should have a dmg penalty to large ships so you cant simply load up 100 small guns. Would increase the viability of smaller ship types as well.

Vellarain wrote:


Flagships

YES! The more you make players personally invested in things like this, the better the game! Maybe each race starts out with one special-model cruiser that they can name and is their flagship. It is more durable, but more of a fleet-support ship than anything else. I would love this!

Very good, ideas, I actualy think the carrier should be seen in the battles, but far of, and the only way to destroy it is to destroy all the other ships first, I would love to see fighters flying around attacking the bigger ships.



Also battles should be much longer, right now I think they last 90 seconds or something, I think you sould be able to scale the length of battle.



Fast, is the way it's now.

Medium, half the time, all ships do and recive half damage and the time is extended to twice the length of how it is now.

Epic, this is half that time again, ships do and rescive half of the medium speed.,



I'm thinking in epic mode battles should last a maximum of 10 minutes, Also you have to have free camera control so you can watch what you want to watch and not just what the game tells you to watch

Flag ships are a figurehead of the empire, a physical show of your might. Starting out with one just cheapens the experience of being the first empire to commission one. And when you want to really make a statement nothing will grab your enemies attention when you have a real behemoth heading their way.



But flag ships are not game ending vessels, they are an expensive and costly to maintain endeavor. Their main role will be a focusing point where you channel your military into a single hardened spear and drive it home.



I would really like to see the Flagships die slow deaths over the sudden ends that other ships face. Sectors going dark, guns losing power, the reactor bleeding out into the void of space or even chain magazine failures causing the ship to list from the shock. But none of this will kill the beast those are only wounds, catastrophic failures like the main battery's magazine blowing or a total reactor meltdown will truly bring it low.



But don't expect to throw this monster in alone and have it do the work of an organized fleet, With its huge, slow guns and easy to shoot at size if left alone even a well equipped strike fleet can make all that hard work vanish!

Gunfreak wrote:
Very good, ideas, I actualy think the carrier should be seen in the battles, but far of, and the only way to destroy it is to destroy all the other ships first, I would love to see fighters flying around attacking the bigger ships.

If the carrier is in sight than it is in risk, carriers cannot skirmish and even with a fleet between them and the enemy all it takes is a lucky round and the carrier will be unable to carry out its primary function. A carriers best friend is a good scout and hard to reach position where it can support the frontal force with its surgical bomber strikes and fighter interception from total safety. If detected a carrier not only faces a strike fleet incoming but also attacking fighter/bomber wings.

If carrier support was a card that scaled with the power of a designated carrier fleet in system, that would be pretty neat. As a passive benefit, though, it may make them a necessity.



Everything else is pretty good, can't wait for build orders.

I was thinking that Carriers had a set amount of fighters and bombers that had to be maintained to be effective and that the carrier would have the option of sending support with a timer depending on distance and example would be short range would have quick response in phase one aid and long range would have the craft appearing in phase 3. Having them as a card option would be interesting, but that means that carriers are only offering up an extra draw option when they can offer so much more.



Build orders really set up the scale and scope of the game. Single order builds just takes the scale out of it when you have entire systems working on building a fleet. And in some cases they can only muster a single ship a year!

What a wonderful concept of allowing the players to help pitch ideas towards the development team to bring fresh ideas into the fray that maybe no one thought of in the team. I have played roughly 61 hours of the Alpha put forward on Steam and I feel that I have a pretty large scale suggestion to put forward that will not only make the combat far more dynamic and deeper but still manage to keep the wonderful cinematic feel that you are putting your efforts into. Anyway enough of the introduction lets start breaking things down.



The rock paper scissors aspect is just far too simplistic and makes it nothing more than who can retrofit the fastest and then it is simply rinse and repeat. No matter how good the fighting can look and how pretty the explosions are this system will get old fast and has already grown tiresome for myself. Even the current stock of ships is nothing more than research the biggest ship and then mass produce it, while the models are unique there is no real character to the ships you make or the composition of your fleets they are nothing more than a disposable piece on the board with the hero's taking all the experience and skills with them as fleet after fleet is either replaced or retrofitted.



What you can do to solve this is by removing the hard counter mentality of the damage system, armor can still absorb missile strikes shields can slow projectiles and such additionally remove defenses being able to absorb 100% of all incoming weapons damage, perfect defense is far too debilitating for fair play and balanced ship designs. This would encourage more well rounded ships, not punish players that want to have a composite fleet of multiple types still allowing for certain roles to still take shape. Additionally Weapon sizes just do not exist at the moment so your cruiser has six guns aboard, but your dreadnought has eight. Why would the dreadnought not have just more guns, but bigger guns I am sure no matter how much armor that cruiser packs on it wont stand a chance when there is a weapon firing at it that has three times the mass of a standard round.





Index



1. Classes

2. Weapons

3. Armor and Evasion

4. Fleet control









Classes



Each class has a role to play in the grand stratagem of galactic combat, each one brings a host of tactical options to the field allowing assured domination with the right balance of weapons and ships. None of the ships on this list can win alone without at least the support of one other ship type. Right now this is a incomplete list of vessels that should be available to the player as he or she progresses towards total domination.



Strike craft:

Size: 30-40 Meters.

Crew: 2-4

Weapons: Small arms, Rockets, Missiles.

Protection: Speed, small profile and Chaff.

Role: Precision attack.



Strike craft are Carrier dependent craft launched for fleet support missions and intercept sorties. While they seem small and insignificant they can slip past defenses like shields and even slip past flak arrays and deal damage to weak areas with ease where normal ships would have no chance of hitting intentionally.



Frigates:

Size: 400-600 Meters

Crew: 50-75

Weapons: Small multi barrel guns.

Protection: ECM is the only real deterrent to hostiles.

Role: Recon, Espionage, Detection.



Frigates are fast and agile ships capable of navigating systems virtually undetected by other craft. This ship is ideal for Recon and running missions requiring stealth like sabotage and deploying agents behing enemy lines to wreak economic havoc and seeding unrest. While they are not considered combat vessels, any fleet would find themselves flying blind without a few reliable Frigates.



Corvettes:

Size: 800-1000 Meters.

Crew:100-125

Weapons: Small Cannons, Missiles, Red Spectrum Lasers.

Protection: A few Inches at best.

Role: Interception, Skirmishing.



The Corvette is the smallest of the combat classes relying more on speed and hit and run tactics to win the day over thick armor and raw fire power. They are ideal candidates for harassing trade routes and keeping Frigates from slipping behind enemy lines if detected where all other classes can be outrun.



Destroyers:

Size: 1500-2000 Meters.

Crew: 400-600

Weapons: Multi Barrel Cannons, Missiles, Torpedoes, Green spectrum Lasers.

Protection: 5-10 inches of plating, PDS, Shields.

Role: Escort, Anti Strike craft/Missile.



The first real step to a dedicated combat vessel the Destroyer blends a mix of weapons and defenses to make it a light but versatile weapon platform. Its greatest asset is the inclusion of torpedoes, a devastating short range weapon that will bring far larger classes of ships down with only a few well placed hits if they let a Destroyer close the gap. Destroyers are great at denying Missiles and small craft from getting in close to larger Vessels that lack such defenses.



Cruisers:

Size:3000-5000 Meters.

Crew:1500-2000

Weapons: Large cannons, Ultraviolet lasers, Missile racks, Torpedoes.

Protection: 20 inches of plating, Deflectors, Shields, PDS.



The Cruiser is the first long rage engagement Class of combat craft that focuses more on medium to long range combat over smaller classes of ship while still possessing a fair amount of speed over the heavier ship classes. Broadside barrages are the main form of attack as they send ordinance downrange at the enemy but can still bring the hurt if forced in close quarters with torpedo salvos. Cruisers will be the first class to Specialize in specific weapon types favoring a a certain category of one type or the other while still carrying some of the other types, just in case.



Battle Cruisers:

Size: 8000-10000 Meters

Crew 3000-6000

Main Arsenal: Massive Cannons, Large Multibarrel Cannons, High duration UV lasers, Missile batteries.

Secondary Weapons: Medium autoguns, Pulse laser systems, Flak batteries.

Protection: 25+ inches of armor, multi generator shield systems.



Battle Cruisers bring the hurt with as many weapon systems that can be pointed from its hull as possible while attempting to maintain enough survivability that it can withstand sustained enemy fire and still eliminate its target. Battle Cruisers are the anchor of Strike Fleets, a fast formation of ships that will hunt and kill smaller forces or blockade planets. This ship class is easily the backbone of all fleet designs with its ability to bring a host of weapons to the fray on the most adaptable hull at little cost unlike the obscene amount of dust like the larger classes will require to field them.



Carriers:

Size: 10000-12000 Meters:

Crew: 8000-10000

Main arsenal: Medium auto guns, Small rapid guns, Green spectrum lasers.

Protection 10+ inch plating, ECM, Flak and PDS.

Role: Combat support, Arial bombardment, Interception.



While the carrier dominated the seas before space exploration the mainstay of the navy just has not been viable as a reliable weapons platform. The space between systems is just too great for strike craft to cross without some kind of aid, and keeping such a large and expensive vessel withing striking range was just too great a gamble. That was until the ability to generate a small wormhole that fighter craft can safely traverse allowing for fast and mobile strikes while keeping the carrier a safe distance from the action. This anywhere at anytime ability seriously alters landscape making early detection a necessity or face constant harassment by the carriers pilots.



Flagships:

Size 15000-20000 Meters.

Crew 10000-12500

Main Arsenal: Player Choice

Secondary: Player Choice

Protection: Player Choice

Role: Any



This ship is culmination of your empires efforts, built under your critical eyes to fill the purpose you deem most impotent this ship can take many forms between each individual that commissions it. Planetary Siege, Capital ship hunter/killer, Ship of the line even a Super Carrier they are all viable options. Its not just the size of this ship that is impressive but its the advanced command and control ability it will carry with it, allowing for larger scale combat unique to its class and the weapons it brings to make a real spectacle of it all. Highly durable, this is one of the only ships that can see compartment failure and even suffer a magazine detonation and still limp away to fight again another day.



Weapons



Wip



Armor and Protection



Wip



Fleet Control



Strike fleets:



So what about all those poor cruisers and frigates, they are going to look mighty small with flagships lobbing rounds the size of them. But they still pose a vital role and smaller fleets will be needed to maintain the footholds made by the larger fleets of flagships. Blockades will harass planets and choke holds will need to be held and maintained, scouts will have to be stopped before they find your precious carriers. Harassment and point defense is the name of the game for strike fleets, being faster than a flagship fleet they can avoid direct contact. Massive fleets cannot plug all the holes and space is a very open ended strategic map, take advantage of that! While the scale will be smaller strike fleets will offer quick and visceral shoot and scoot battles, while the flagships will play host to massive entanglements.



Build orders:



With flagships being massive projects that take years to finish, I feel that the smaller strike fleets should come in pre-designed packs and built in large order. Even now in the harder difficulties I play I can have entire fleets wiped out turn after turn so this idea is not a far cry from being added. And since flag ships will be very support ship hungry this will make ship management far more easier on the cranium.



Well that is all I have for now on how to revitalize combat in a more interesting way, have a good day and feel free to hit me up and tell me how you think about adding those changes and feel free to add your own thoughts to refine this even further.

Vellarain wrote:
...

This would be far better than the actual rock paper scissor we have for a battle. But like previous poster said, the actual system is good for multiplayer since no ones need to wait.



But i do not understand (because of my poor english^^) how your flagships or carriers will operate on the actual galaxy map. Do you mean Flagships can engage from a distant solar system same as carrier? (ie adjacent solar system).

Apart from this misunderstanding i like the idea of a flagship. Even if it does not need to be that powerfull, could be just a module added to a current generic hull that could give you more space in your fleet, hence more firepower, and/or damage/resistance bonus advantage.

Loosing the flagship should also give dramatic moral penalties, loss of dust and so on...



While i really like the carrier concept, i'm still not understanding how you want it to work. Do you mean it would just intervene in a special phase during a fight? Like an option to send fighters at the beginning of a fight to counter ennemy fighters? Or Bombers to assault ennemy ships?

I agree with Pyro, short battles still need to be paramount for fast paced multiplay. After all watching starships slug it out for ten minutes when you have three or more battles pending in one turn means your gonna be watching a lot of shells being traded back and forth for not a lot of actual gain.



Even if my suggestion is implemented the core time allotment of 90 seconds will still be the average time, with flag ship battles maybe running a little longer for obvious reasons. But flagship fights would be infrequent at best and would be turning points in the conflict where great gains will be made in that turn of play.

Christophe_Degoy wrote:
This would be far better than the actual rock paper scissor we have for a battle. But like previous poster said, the actual system is good for multiplayer since no ones need to wait.



But i do not understand (because of my poor english^^) how your flagships or carriers will operate on the actual galaxy map. Do you mean Flagships can engage from a distant solar system same as carrier? (ie adjacent solar system).

Apart from this misunderstanding i like the idea of a flagship. Even if it does not need to be that powerfull, could be just a module added to a current generic hull that could give you more space in your fleet, hence more firepower, and/or damage/resistance bonus advantage.

Loosing the flagship should also give dramatic moral penalties, loss of dust and so on...



While i really like the carrier concept, i'm still not understanding how you want it to work. Do you mean it would just intervene in a special phase during a fight? Like an option to send fighters at the beginning of a fight to counter ennemy fighters? Or Bombers to assault ennemy ships?

Ill try to sum it up here simply.



Flagship = very large, bigger than what is available now, huge guns and can support the largest fleet possible. I think I hinted at the morale boost in my first post.



Carrier = very large, strong support with fighters/bombers. Very vulnerable to attack by anything needing to stay undetected.

Ah ok, this i understood, but i did not understood in the first place it was an evolution of actual system, i thought you were replacing the rock paper scissor system.



So now that i got it your suggestion would definitivly spice the actual system a lot ! A system i'm not too fond, but that's because there's not much option to play with during a fight...

By the way, there is this little shady game nearly no one knows about but that might give some ideas about evolving combat system using more cards :

Smugglers 4 Doomsday

(http://www.nielsbauergames.com/smugglers4.html)



What is interesting about this game is the card system in combat which is a bit similar to what Endless Space is proposing.



While in Endless Space all cards are played from the start, in Smugglers 4, you play a card each turn during a fight, where initiative rules who is drawing card first each turn, and the fighting last until you or ennemy is dead turns after turns.



I'm not asking to make more turns in ES, but some kind of "initiative" would be welcomed, puting more strategy in the fighting.



In actual system all cards are played at same time, with no initiative advantage.



Initiative checks at each round :

What would be interesting is puting some more Initiative in it :



- preparation round : each player draw one card, cards are played same time (like a deployment phase, this will then tell who's initiative would be the best and dictate wich player throw his cards first on next round)



- long range round : the player with the worst initiative from preparation round play his card first, giving the player with the best initiative an advantage to choose his card accordingly. Then the round is played.



- middle range : depending on the result of the long range round, an initiative check is done again, and players draw their cards accordingly one after the other. Round is played after that.



- close combat range : same as middle range.



Cards initiave rolls should be done so even if you have initiative at Long Range turn (hence playing second for that turn knowing what the ennemy will do and having possibility to counter him more effectively) this does not give you an automatic initiative advantage for the initiative check on Medium Range. The initiative check should take into account result of previous round, losses and so on to tell who has the best initiative for the Medium round to draw cards.

Think of this initiative idea as a sort of moral ledger.



Some cards should negate/reduce initiative from other cards like it is working similar with the current system when a card negates another.

Some others cards should boost your initiative or ennemy initiative if the card you play/he play tell it.



To summerize, initiative system is not a separate card, it is a value added to existing cards, but used separatly to make the checks each round.



Reverse fight range cards :



The fighting should go normally from long range to short range, but there should also be "one time use cards" that make this go back one click, like going from a short range position to a medium range position, or a medium range to long range. If no more special cards played like this one, the combat goes on normally from long/middle range till it ends to short range. If there is, say, 2 cards like that, playable only once, this would probably just double the time spent on fighting.

Or there could be just one card like this one, playable only once. And one skill a Hero that would do the same but once per fight.

this card could be played in addition to another card (or not, since it's already a nice advantage to take distance from ennemy if you want to flee, or finish off ennemy for more turns)

This system would be interesting, if weapons effectiveness also vary with range (is it the case?). IE you have ships designed for long range (accuracy/damage but low armor), this card is interesting.



Evasion card :

Also adding some special "evasion" cards would also be interesting to make your ships retreat whenever you want during a fight, but at the next round following, so you still have to sustain damage to simulate preparation for a hyperjump retreat.



With just this, the initiative system and the possibility to reverse range of fight for 1 round or twice, is enough to add a lot more of interest in the current fighting model.

This system will evolve from a "sit and watch system" the case actually, to a more immersive system.

No need to add more time to each round, just split actual rounds so that each player have time to draw cards one after the other and still have time to think of their choice. this will make fighting more dynamic !



Finally adding more cards variation during the fight would also add more spice to it, since we will no longer play them at same time.

I think my two threads on combat answer a lot of the concerns raised here: /#/endless-space/forum/28-game-design/thread/11640-5th-tech-tree-military-doctrine and /#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13307-expanding-on-combat-doctrine-and-fleet-construction

+1 on the Flagship, that seems like a cool idea. How much extra Command does it add to your fleet and how much Command will it cost?



What if you have 2 fleets in a well, both are near max or at max capacity, why not combine them into an armada of sorts?

Positives-

-Larger fleet size, more diverse options (Cards and Vessel mixture)

-Creates a spearhead that would surely cause alot of panic

-Epic battles? This could make or break a struggle...

-Corks or the Cork-screw in bottle-necks...

-Who doesn't want to see two titanic forces colliding?



Negatives-

-Expensive to maintain

-Not a very long move distance

-Only a certain amount of armadas can be active at any given time

-Maybe a turn or two grace after an armada gets obliterated...

-Some cards may not be viable with such a large collection of ships



Add a flagship into it and wage war like a supreme Emperor! =D

They definitely wouldn't be game winners alone, probably a spear-head or cork, maybe even an intimidating tool? definitely a force to be reckoned with.

Formations also? Why not include formations so your fleets fulfill specific functions?



eg, Defensive formations, Raiding formations, Surgical strike formations, etc.

Each would have it's own strengths and weaknesses and probably some requirements. (After all you can't have a slow capital ship performing fast attack runs and like-wise a more frail vessel purposefully taking all the brunt of the enemy firepower...)