I completely agree that the tech tree needs a few tweaks to rearrange when certain techs come up.



I'd also like to see random tech tress at least be an option for the single player game to add to the replayability but for obvious reasons the finalized tree should be the only thing used for the multiplayer in order to eliminate balance issues.

What about modules for "Space fighters" in ship construction. That way we can build Aircraft Carriers that launch swarms of fighters.

Solitas wrote:
How do you know you need Di-Methyl-Silica only after you have researched what needs it? How did you research the use of Di-Methyl-Silica if you didn't know what Di-Methyl-Silica was?

I'd rather put it the other way: You can research basic weapons, drones etc., and you get the basic units. However, after diving into the Science tree and finding out about certain minerals, metals, ores, you can adapt certain other technologies to make use of it. Or you can, once you've found a mineral, study that mineral more thoroughly to find a use for it.



Say one of your science tree breakthroughs lets you find something called Triexinium. Once you've colonised a planet where Triexinium is found, another tech is available to be researched on the Science tree. Once that tech is researched, you will know how Triexinium can be used for other things, like laser lenses, plasma conduits, superconductors, etc.



(Researching cruisers before you have found Titanium-70 has always confused me; how do you know you need Titanium-70 if you don't know what Titanium-70 is? :P)

Definitely agree with this reasoning. On the other hand, there's the "we could do this better if only we had a material that has these properties..." which does happen quite a bit in the real world.

gunnergoz wrote:
that require "Di-Methyl-Silica" to build. Now I've got to start looking around for the stuff...where is it? Oh no, to exploit it, I have to skip over to the Economics Tree and next research "Advanced Orbital Mining." I do that and am now able to discover and exploit "Di-Methyl-Silica." Great.

How do you know you need Di-Methyl-Silica only after you have researched what needs it? How did you research the use of Di-Methyl-Silica if you didn't know what Di-Methyl-Silica was?

I'd rather put it the other way: You can research basic weapons, drones etc., and you get the basic units. However, after diving into the Science tree and finding out about certain minerals, metals, ores, you can adapt certain other technologies to make use of it. Or you can, once you've found a mineral, study that mineral more thoroughly to find a use for it.



Say one of your science tree breakthroughs lets you find something called Triexinium. Once you've colonised a planet where Triexinium is found, another tech is available to be researched on the Science tree. Once that tech is researched, you will know how Triexinium can be used for other things, like laser lenses, plasma conduits, superconductors, etc.



(Researching cruisers before you have found Titanium-70 has always confused me; how do you know you need Titanium-70 if you don't know what Titanium-70 is? :P)

Suggestion!



Increase over-all time for all forms of research, of course a greater effect the further out you go. Then, the more individual techs completed in any tech tree reduces the time taken to research ANYTHING in that section. Maybe even giving a time reduction based on how many connecting lines (related techs) are researched also, allowing for easier back-tracking down the branches. This would hinder a player attempting to plow straight to specific advanced parts of the each tech tree, encouraging a more natural all-round developement in a particular section which would represent their civilisations specialty. For example a militant focused civilization would be more likely to have a gradual increase in all areas of warfare with maybe a specialisation in kinetics, rather than world-destroying kinetics and zero use of beams combined with the best diplomatic skills and largest ships around resulting in normally obvious, but AI destroying tactics (I haven't actually tried this, but a player would definitely clue in to the fleet of dreadnaughts with maxed kinetics asking to enter their borders peacefully while relatively early into the game).



It is already present in the tech tree's and I like it so much I want to stress that the high-range techs in one section should require the mid-range techs in at least one other section to work well (ship types in one section, weapons in another is an obvious one). Combine it with the above idea and the idea of attempting to research ALL THE TECHS would just be silly and aiming to research 'a lot' of 2 of the branches more realistic. Suddenly trading tech seems like a great idea!



Another idea I (and clearly many others) had was fragmenting the tech tree a bit more, essentially expanding its layout. Could be done by literally splitting certain techs, or reducing the boost from some while adding in completely new techs to increase the over-all flexibility of your technological advancement. Removing some of the connections between techs where there is no real connection between the two types of research would force the player to map out their research a bit more also.

GenericAmerican wrote:
Wow, 5 minutes a turn average? I can control half the galaxy and have 20 seperate fleets, and not take more than a minute per turn. . .maybe I'm too used to micromanaging things.

Dang. It takes me 8 hours to play 80 turns...hmm, divide by...that's six minutes a turn. Yep, sounds about right. You must be the Einstein of the ES universe! Just kidding, we each play our own way and that is fine by me.

Here's what I posted in the thread on randomized tech trees. I'm including it here because I think it is relevant to this thread too.



Want to change the tech tree or how it works in ES? Fine...but then you have to take into consideration how the ships and weapons work and the fact that there are darn few choices for weapons and countermeasures. 3 on each side is it, really. So how do you make a variable tech tree that still permits you to have use of the few weapons that the game is designed around?



One way is to link the weapons to certain planetary bonuses, which is already part of the game. The difference would be to have more variety of weapons, e.g. 3 or 4 flavors each of lasers or missiles or guns, all with different pros and cons and all using different resources which you must be exploiting in order to use them.



This allows for a more variable research experience, a game that is still within the existing paradigm, and also prevents the boredom that eventually sets in once you learn how to beeline certain techs in order to maximize your positioning for victory.



So, say I'm developing my cruisers and I need an advanced missile. I research the next level and find that I've made a breakthrough in, say, "Intelligent Drones" that require "Di-Methyl-Silica" to build. Now I've got to start looking around for the stuff...where is it? Oh no, to exploit it, I have to skip over to the Economics Tree and next research "Advanced Orbital Mining." I do that and am now able to discover and exploit "Di-Methyl-Silica." Great. Now begins the mad rush to find a planet with the stuff and colonize it before the other guy does...but then, maybe his advanced missiles depend upon some other tech entirely. But, it turns out, he needs the "Di-Methyl Silica" to fuel his next generation Battleships! So it is a race after all...



And so on.



My point is that I like the way ES is evolving and I don't want to alter the recipe...only to give it a little more nutty flavor.

Usually for me in 4x games, the turn time is ramping because I'm a super industry micromanager.

Nosferatiel wrote:

VARRAKK wrote:
I would like some changes done to each part of the tech tree.



1) You can't see what is beyond the next level. Tech lvl 1 can see 2, but not 3+

2) What you can research is name a theories.

3) Once a tech is researched, you get full description of it. AND actual stats of what it does.

For instance, Quantum Communications. It isn't very obvious that it increases your Command Points.

To 1): If you cannot see beyond a certain tech tree level, but the techs are not randomized, the effect is that many players will switch to the wiki and look on the full techtree or just print it out.

It doesn't make much sense, in my opinion.

As long as it could be randomized (in a way that still makes sense), I think it would be a great way to keep the tech tree somewhat fresh. Otherwise, as Nosferatiel notes, it just becomes an obstacle to fun.

Trees could be more advanced have more techs and dependencies, like in Gal Civ 2, or Space Empires

http://wiki.spaceempires.net/index.php/Tech_Tree_(SEV)

Of course it needs tweaking. It may be a little fast now, but think of it as a way to let gamer get to know the tech tree.

Solitas wrote:
There is a setting for this in the advanced start menu. I haven't tried playing on the 'Few Planets' setting yet; I normally play on normal, but I have tied 'Many Planets' and that works.

The few planets setting seems to drop it down to mostly 3 or 4 a system with some 2s and 5s and very few 1s and 6s. Not sure if random means random number of planets per system or pick a random setting - when I tried it I got loads of size 6 systems so I think the latter and it chose 'many planets'.



Maybe if the techs are rearranged it will require more good system hunting as you can't colonise every type so quickly but at the moment I just find I stop looking at the systems after the first 2 or 3 and send colony ships to everything I can see.

thatotherguy57 wrote:
It's absurd that within the first 100 turns, I was able to colonise everything I ran across.

What is your opinion of how the game should progress over time?



I was colonizing up to about turn 100, at which time all the worlds in the game had been colonized. Then I switched to planetary assault on neighbors and terraforming for the next phase.



That game ended on turn 180 via economic defeat.



There's a setting for game speed, which I believe controls the number of turns it takes to advance technology. Not sure though.

FluffyBunny wrote:
I would like to see the trees rearranged a bit so that you cant have all the colonisation techs so early in the game - at normal speed everything is viable and getting colonised before turn 50.

I agree. Colonisation techs, as well as warp speed, should be more spread out and be further into the trees.

FluffyBunny wrote:
On a sort of related note I find that the majority of systems have 4 or 5 planets, its very rare to find ones with just 1 or 2. This means I only have to go hunting for nice systems to colonise for my first couple of systems, after that I am just grabbing everything I can as they will all be good. I would rather have more empty systems and systems with just one gas giant/asteroids so that I need to scout more and then claim and hold prime real estate further from my home system.

There is a setting for this in the advanced start menu. I haven't tried playing on the 'Few Planets' setting yet; I normally play on normal, but I have tied 'Many Planets' and that works.

I would like to see the trees rearranged a bit so that you cant have all the colonisation techs so early in the game - at normal speed everything is viable and getting colonised before turn 50.



On a sort of related note I find that the majority of systems have 4 or 5 planets, its very rare to find ones with just 1 or 2. This means I only have to go hunting for nice systems to colonise for my first couple of systems, after that I am just grabbing everything I can as they will all be good. I would rather have more empty systems and systems with just one gas giant/asteroids so that I need to scout more and then claim and hold prime real estate further from my home system.

So far, I very much like the way this game is developing. I have a serious complaint about the tech trees, specifically, the Expansion tree. It's absurd that within the first 100 turns, I was able to colonise everything I ran across. This tech tree needs to be completely rethought, in my opinion. The techs fit nicely into the game, but their respective positions in the tree need to be reviewed. The Weapons tree feels good, though I think a little tweaking to it may still be needed. I haven't invested a whole lot into Applied Sciences or Diplomacy tech trees, so I don't have much opinion on those. Also, the speed of research should be slowed further.

VARRAKK wrote:
I would like some changes done to each part of the tech tree.



1) You can't see what is beyond the next level. Tech lvl 1 can see 2, but not 3+

2) What you can research is name a theories.

3) Once a tech is researched, you get full description of it. AND actual stats of what it does.

For instance, Quantum Communications. It isn't very obvious that it increases your Command Points.

To 1): If you cannot see beyond a certain tech tree level, but the techs are not randomized, the effect is that many players will switch to the wiki and look on the full techtree or just print it out.

It doesn't make much sense, in my opinion.

I would like some changes done to each part of the tech tree.



1) You can't see what is beyond the next level. Tech lvl 1 can see 2, but not 3+

2) What you can research is name a theories.

3) Once a tech is researched, you get full description of it. AND actual stats of what it does.

For instance, Quantum Communications. It isn't very obvious that it increases your Command Points.

GenericAmerican wrote:
Wow, 5 minutes a turn average? I can control half the galaxy and have 20 seperate fleets, and not take more than a minute per turn. . .maybe I'm too used to micromanaging things.

Even a minute a turn, still take 11+ hours to reach 700 turns.

Randeng wrote:
I agree, it's very easy to unlock the best class ship, or colonizing techs.

Aye, I would not mind if the stronger ships took longer to unlock but the rest stayed where its at.

Solitas wrote:
Wait what? 3000+ turns? Right now I'm playing a game in a huge galaxy, normal difficulty, slow speed, seven opponents: I'm at turn 300 and have researched 25/50 warfare, 25/32 science, 21/28 exploration and 19/29 trade. I have the strongest fleet, have more than twice the score of number 2, and am in lead for both science and economic victory.

So, yes, I think the research is done way too fast, along with the rest of the game.



Hmm... Reading that again, did you mean 3000+ turns to finish all the research?

Let's do a little maths then. Without any change in my empire as it is now, I will need ... 625 turns, and that includes the final science tech which right now will take 216 turns alone. Disregarding that one I will have researched everything in 409 more turns. That gives a grand total of 709 turns assuming no more science increases!

The thing is that I just got a tech that gives graviton-shielded laboratories, which increases science output in the system it is built in by 20%, and I not built any of those yet. Add to that that in 5 more turns I can build anomalies institutes, which will add 40% to system science.

I'm too tired to do the maths now, but I think it is safe to assume that I will finish all tech barring the final science one within another 200 turns, and that is if I don't get any more star systems; I have 16 now, and there are none non-colonised systems left. As a side bonus, most of my planetary exploitations are set to industry.



So, yeah. I still say that research is over way too fast.

dont know what you did but im on slow. 300 turns in and I only have at the most 20% of everything researched. Steam says 4 hours played.





my turns:

top - 5000 turns for last item

left - 3000 turns for last item

right - 8500 turns for last item

bottom- 1500 turns for last item



I have all scenarios turned off. I win when the rest are dead.

GenericAmerican wrote:
Wow, 5 minutes a turn average? I can control half the galaxy and have 20 seperate fleets, and not take more than a minute per turn. . .maybe I'm too used to micromanaging things.

I have to agree here.



5 min average would have taken 25 hours to get to turn 300; I have not spent that long. :P

liq3 wrote:
Damn, only 709 turns? Here I was hoping it'd take at least 10,000 turns to research everything! :rolleyes:



Assuming 5 minutes a turn average... 4x709 = 2836 / 60 = just over 47 hours. There are $50 games I play for less then 47 hours. -.-

Wow, 5 minutes a turn average? I can control half the galaxy and have 20 seperate fleets, and not take more than a minute per turn. . .maybe I'm too used to micromanaging things.

Solitas wrote:
Wait what? 3000+ turns? Right now I'm playing a game in a huge galaxy, normal difficulty, slow speed, seven opponents: I'm at turn 300 and have researched 25/50 warfare, 25/32 science, 21/28 exploration and 19/29 trade. I have the strongest fleet, have more than twice the score of number 2, and am in lead for both science and economic victory.

So, yes, I think the research is done way too fast, along with the rest of the game.



Hmm... Reading that again, did you mean 3000+ turns to finish all the research?

Let's do a little maths then. Without any change in my empire as it is now, I will need ... 625 turns, and that includes the final science tech which right now will take 216 turns alone. Disregarding that one I will have researched everything in 409 more turns. That gives a grand total of 709 turns assuming no more science increases!

The thing is that I just got a tech that gives graviton-shielded laboratories, which increases science output in the system it is built in by 20%, and I not built any of those yet. Add to that that in 5 more turns I can build anomalies institutes, which will add 40% to system science.

I'm too tired to do the maths now, but I think it is safe to assume that I will finish all tech barring the final science one within another 200 turns, and that is if I don't get any more star systems; I have 16 now, and there are none non-colonised systems left. As a side bonus, most of my planetary exploitations are set to industry.



So, yeah. I still say that research is over way too fast.

Damn, only 709 turns? Here I was hoping it'd take at least 10,000 turns to research everything! :rolleyes:



Assuming 5 minutes a turn average... 4x709 = 2836 / 60 = just over 47 hours. There are $50 games I play for less then 47 hours. -.-

mokaiba wrote:
hmm, I think 3,000+ turns is slow enough.

Wait what? 3000+ turns? Right now I'm playing a game in a huge galaxy, normal difficulty, slow speed, seven opponents: I'm at turn 300 and have researched 25/50 warfare, 25/32 science, 21/28 exploration and 19/29 trade. I have the strongest fleet, have more than twice the score of number 2, and am in lead for both science and economic victory.

So, yes, I think the research is done way too fast, along with the rest of the game.



Hmm... Reading that again, did you mean 3000+ turns to finish all the research?

Let's do a little maths then. Without any change in my empire as it is now, I will need ... 625 turns, and that includes the final science tech which right now will take 216 turns alone. Disregarding that one I will have researched everything in 409 more turns. That gives a grand total of 709 turns assuming no more science increases!

The thing is that I just got a tech that gives graviton-shielded laboratories, which increases science output in the system it is built in by 20%, and I not built any of those yet. Add to that that in 5 more turns I can build anomalies institutes, which will add 40% to system science.

I'm too tired to do the maths now, but I think it is safe to assume that I will finish all tech barring the final science one within another 200 turns, and that is if I don't get any more star systems; I have 16 now, and there are none non-colonised systems left. As a side bonus, most of my planetary exploitations are set to industry.



So, yeah. I still say that research is over way too fast.

Solitas wrote:
I agree wholeheartedly. As it is now, research is over way too fast. That's from the point of view from someone who's only been playing on slow; either everything is way too fast, or the slow option is not working.

hmm, I think 3,000+ turns is slow enough.



wish I had an auto-turn button...

thatotherguy57 wrote:
So far, I very much like the way this game is developing. I have a serious complaint about the tech trees, specifically, the Expansion tree. It's absurd that within the first 100 turns, I was able to colonise everything I ran across. This tech tree needs to be completely rethought, in my opinion. The techs fit nicely into the game, but their respective positions in the tree need to be reviewed. The Weapons tree feels good, though I think a little tweaking to it may still be needed. I haven't invested a whole lot into Applied Sciences or Diplomacy tech trees, so I don't have much opinion on those. Also, the speed of research should be slowed further.

I agree, some of the positions make no sense. I would prefer a sots type tech tree, meaning more individualized, rather than one large one. placing destroyers, next to the planet colonization techs make little sense. But as my sig says, it is an alpha, judge accordingly lol.

I agree wholeheartedly. As it is now, research is over way too fast. That's from the point of view from someone who's only been playing on slow; either everything is way too fast, or the slow option is not working.

thatotherguy57 wrote:
So far, I very much like the way this game is developing. I have a serious complaint about the tech trees, specifically, the Expansion tree. It's absurd that within the first 100 turns, I was able to colonise everything I ran across. This tech tree needs to be completely rethought, in my opinion. The techs fit nicely into the game, but their respective positions in the tree need to be reviewed. The Weapons tree feels good, though I think a little tweaking to it may still be needed. I haven't invested a whole lot into Applied Sciences or Diplomacy tech trees, so I don't have much opinion on those. Also, the speed of research should be slowed further.

Play on the slow setting? I don't know, if you focus solely on the Expansion tree you will have difficulties not getting killed against the AI on the more advanced difficulties.

thatotherguy57 wrote:
So far, I very much like the way this game is developing. I have a serious complaint about the tech trees, specifically, the Expansion tree. It's absurd that within the first 100 turns, I was able to colonise everything I ran across. This tech tree needs to be completely rethought, in my opinion. The techs fit nicely into the game, but their respective positions in the tree need to be reviewed. The Weapons tree feels good, though I think a little tweaking to it may still be needed. I haven't invested a whole lot into Applied Sciences or Diplomacy tech trees, so I don't have much opinion on those. Also, the speed of research should be slowed further.

I agree, it's very easy to unlock the best class ship, or colonizing techs.