I dunno, I'm pretty skeptical of the idea. From previous experience, re-supplying has always made me not want to play games. I've found very few of them implemented it properly, but most ended up making it annoying. Often you needed 2-3 supply units per actual combat unit just to keep them operational at a reasonable distance. If we need to implement something to limit movement, a research to increase the distance able to travel from one's own territory would be far better imho. With fuel, in the end all you need to do is just use supply units as recon.

sagittary wrote:
Valid point, nevertheless. Any system implemented, we want to make sure it makes the game more fun and interesting without unduly increasing time spend in game. Especially time spent in game doing unfun things or lingering in the clean up phase.

I don't think that this would be "unfun" or dramatically increase the game time. Instead, it would give you something to do prior while you wait for fleets to finish being built or systems assimilated. It would be a simple economy booster I don't think would have a negative impact on the game. In fact, I yearn for more strategic elements in the game so implementing this would make it more fun and less time consuming to me.

FuegoTigre wrote:
I think it's an interesting idea. I also believe that it could significantly increase the game time needed for a complete domination victory, as that more planning/strategy/infrastructure/defense of infrastructure would be needed. Would be cool as an option/mod. At the moment, I'm not looking to increase the time spent in game.



'Course, I'm still getting used to this fun bugger.

Valid point, nevertheless. Any system implemented, we want to make sure it makes the game more fun and interesting without unduly increasing time spend in game. Especially time spent in game doing unfun things or lingering in the clean up phase.

I think it's an interesting idea. I also believe that it could significantly increase the game time needed for a complete domination victory, as that more planning/strategy/infrastructure/defense of infrastructure would be needed. Would be cool as an option/mod. At the moment, I'm not looking to increase the time spent in game.



'Course, I'm still getting used to this fun bugger.

I think I ought to make myself perhaps a bit more clear. I realize now that "fuel" may not be pertinent (even though reactors do need ions with which to react) and I don't want anything too constrictive either, I'm not saying you need to resupply halfway between systems, that would be ridiculous, consider however, systems like nations on Earth, separated by "seas" of space. Our boats, and planes for that matter, don't need to refuel as they cross between them, but we are constantly sending supplies up to the international space station. My point is, I think that some form of directly controlled trade is necessary for realism's sake.



To be clear, I will not be crushed should it not be implemented, however, some gamers will recall that in Rise of Nations, you need to establish trade caravans. I think a similar system would prevent it from bogging you down while still giving pirates and blockaders reason.



If you built a ship, possibly a colony ship with a trade or cargo module, then told them to rotate along a given route, you could use it as a way to ensure materials are getting to manufacturing systems quickly, as well as giving enemies a tangible target that they, or you, could target to gain a strategic advantage over another race.



These trade vessels would also be capable of traveling to assimilation systems, similar to what the Americans did with the British prior to their engagement in WW2. This would help me, at least, to feel more involved in the actual operation in the government, rather than the mostly hands off approach used now.



By using these trade vessels, you could potentially give certain systems an industry or dust boost as a result of their resource trade, however, I'd rather just install the routes rather than determine the cargo.



I hope that I've been able to clear things up a little.

Premier wrote:
and you can have supply ships following along but not fuel.

Nay! Having supply ships defeats the purpose. Who supplies the supply ships? I mean mid flight that is, do they need supplies too? If so, then they get stranded too, which will get annoying and pointless. If they don't or if their range is larger than the other ships, then what's the point of scouting units anymore and expansion limits, just use supply ships. In fact, just retrofit supply ships with guns and make fleets that can travel infinitely, then all you have to do is force your enemy to chase you til they run out, and pick them off while they're down or by-pass them. Not only that, but they'll have to travel at super speed to make the back and forth trips to keep the other ships going, or you need a ridiculous amount of them. Too much micro-management that adds too little.

Adding 'fuel' or general supplies is in a practical sense annoying enough, adding supply ships to the mix makes things worse. The idea of attrition or research requirements is far better, although I personally am quite happy with the way things are.

No. Thank you.

I do like the idea of supply's limiting how far early ships can travel, but not fuel, more food/spares/new crew. The bigger and more advanced ships lack that problem, and you can have supply ships following along but not fuel.

If you make this game too convoluted it is going to take 8 years to play a game and it will suck. Like someone said, reactors don't really need fuel like rockets do. I think timing fleet arrivals depending on their max speed is strategy enough.

sagittary wrote:
Rather than a strict fuel system, perhaps a more elegant way would be to model the need for a supply line. Distance from/to the nearest friendly system influences travel speed. If that system is cut off from the rest of the empire, it can still provide a benefit but less so.

Yes that could work - a passive malus to movement cost calculated from distance to nearest colony (in "birds line" ignoring any lines or wormholes)

This ^ would be applicable for this sort of thing.

Rather than a strict fuel system, perhaps a more elegant way would be to model the need for a supply line. Distance from/to the nearest friendly system influences travel speed. If that system is cut off from the rest of the empire, it can still provide a benefit but less so.

I was thought to bring up the idea after reading about how space stations could be of use and thinking about how systems get blockaded and such. I was thinking that they must be blockading something, why not resupply vessels. I myself am hesitant to blatantly say "we need more travel limits" because I often do send ships clear across the galaxy, however, I found it curious that everyone seemed to be able to go decades without obtaining any new food supplies or matter for replicators or any sort of sustainable hydroponic garden being mentioned anywhere.

Mansen wrote:
If we have to see any kind of fuel usage, we need to do away with the nodeline movement and make ships be able to fly X distance from the nearest system (depending on the development level). I seem to recall MOO2 having a similar similar to this?



But no - I'd prefer no fuel. Let people flank as mad as they wish.

The way Moo2 did this is pretty much perfect. It would also prevent major balance issues with the 'see the whole map' affinity as you wouldn't be able to instantly fly to a far away location to colonise it, but rather be limited to a radius of x from your current colonies.



It would also not require additional resources, just technologies that increase your range. (Which adds additional depth to the tech tree - though it could easily be added to existing techs rather than completely new ones)

As it is, the game works VERY well with the current system of resources. Addition of layers may not always be the best thing, especially when the current mechanics of upkeep are done very well.

There have been a couple of points made about limiting the distance from your empire a fleet can travel as a result of a lack of fuel. Also, space stations would reduce the cost of refueling, so one argument for such stations go, however, there are no fuel tanks. Your ships engines effectively determine range, but this is a bit unrealistic, after all, engines provide power and speed, fuel determines distance.



I think that fuel tanks would not only be an effective way to limit the exponential growth of significantly stronger empires, but it would also enhance the strategy required when conquering outposts. For example, in the current game, a fleet of ships can starve out an entire system until they obey your rule. This seems wholly impossible to me, unless all of the ships have star trek style replicators I overlooked, and even still, your fleets should need medical supplies, tools for repairs, fuel for the engines and power systems, and ammo for the weapons.



Also, scouts are currently capable of flying anywhere they don't get blown to pieces, again, this is handy when you just want to know everything you can about other constellations, but the logistics don't work. With advances in ship hull strength and carrying capacity, you could upgrade your ships fuel tanks and thus their range.



As previously stated, there is some debate about space stations, which I support, however they cannot realize their full potential unless fuel tanks are added. The way I see it, there are two ways to refuel a ship, first, you could land the fleet in the hangar of a system you own, or two, you could send fuel tankers, possibly retrofitted colony ships, to provide fuel around new systems or in deep space. You could simply place a tanker in orbit around the same system you are invading and your ships would restock on fuel and other supplies.



I'm not sure if you'd really want to, but currently ships cast only dust to maintain, I suppose this could mean that they take 1 dust per year for supplies and whatnot, but perhaps they ought to require the various fuel sources or food to be maintained.

Well im not proposing anything anyway, i would be happy with a sort of range limit thing baised on what stage your planets are at.



But to be honist i would love a true 'supply' system where you ships need to return to your systems to resupply, even adding in the need for supplyships and such.

Ironically I think the SOTS2 supply/mission system is horrible, so you're not winning over me with fuel tanks. At least not as long as star distance is so random. You can risk being stuck with 2 systems in your starter constellation because of unlucky RNG on the map generator. (especially so on the arms map)

Mansen wrote:
Well no it isn't - or the crew would die of hunger when stranded somewhere.

I never said it actually makes sence, but it is still included in the 'idea' of the process.



Thats why they re-thunk the fleet structure in SOTS2, because it doesent make any sence.

Igncom1 wrote:
Do remeber that 'fuel' in most games is also an abstract way of also saying food and ammunition supplys, i would like to see some kind of system like this, but i can understand the hesitation.

Well no it isn't - or the crew would die of hunger when stranded somewhere.