Calico wrote:
Not that i want to be harsh or something, Isani... but we already developed a concept based on several ideas. That are the 4 pages before you copypasted your idea from your old thread. I really don't wanna discourage anyone from helping, but just ignoring everything we worked out so far and introducing a completly different concept and saying "Vote for me, my old thread is dead and so i copy it to one that still receives attention"... do you get my point? Cause that is how you coming accross when you don't really discuss anything. You have a few interesting ideas there, granted. But you made no effort merging it with our current concept.

I've read the previous posts, and although I believe they have something, I really think it has more chance of succeeding if it's implemented in an easier manner. Adding them as 'species interaction based' anomalies would ultimately make it easier to program. I apologize if I sound arrogant in how I've been posting. I also think that damage from invasion-based anomalies should be factored in. Your troops on the ground will probably use explosives a lot.

Insani wrote:
-snip-

Sry, was busy with the Guild Wars 2 Beta over the weekend. I really try to be constructive, but some of your suggestions are really unbalanced or unrealistic.



Before i say anything else, i admit that using the anomaly mechanic is a upside of the concept, considering its a already programmed in the game. Still i'm not happy with it, especially with the anomaly solutions you've posted, i'll highlight a few things that seem rather strange to me.



Bombardment: This is a quicker, but riskier method. You bomb the alien population, destroying all of it. High chance of warfare based anomaly, and very small chance that the planet will become barren.



Risking a planet to become barren is already too much, anomalys are hard already. What if your intention wasn't to conquer the planet at all, just to destroy is population to harass your enemy? It would be utterly worthless after that, for everyone. I like our bombardment option a lot more.... destroying the population and some improvements is already a big punishment for anyone who wants the system after that, it does not need to be more that that. The tradeoff for beeing faster then invasion seems balanced.



Diplomacy: (Impossible for cravers) You are willing to negotiate with the people on the planet. In exchange for a burst of 250 happiness and industry being increased by 500% for a short while, the planet will be restored to it's original owner. Alternatively, you can spend dust to quell rebellions. Large amounts of dust.



So, you invaded a system...and now you want to give it back? Why did you invade it in the firstplace? How do you plan on telling your Troops that fought to get control over the system that you just decided to give it back to the previous owners? Why should the happiness and production increase over the previous levels before the invasion? I don't see any way that this will ever happen or to be even semi-sci-fi realistic. Giving back a System without establishing peace with the previous owner first is absurd. Paying large sums of Dust also puts you at as disadvantage. Since both options are putting you in a bad position, why would anyone ever choose it?



Regulate: Permanently dock a fleet (needs to have a military strength of 3k+ to work) to a planet to regulate it. The fleet will be dismantled and they will go onto the planet to regulate it's citizens, by any means necessary. May lower happiness.



3K military strength? That is a lot, especially early game. Not to say that even midgame the loss of a Fleet that size puts you at a disadvantage, especially if you factor in the lower happiness. If this was to be implemented it would have to factor in the size of the population, not just a rather imaginary number. Could be a option later, if they ever implement Ground Troops. Still, i don't see how it could be done right now.



---------------------



I'll just sum up what are our goals in short, at least what i believe they are, after a week of discussions:



1. Follow the KISS Principle: Few Options, that differ from each other. Avoid randomness and long lasting effects. Don't make it a game of it's own and take too much away from the "big picture" which is ruling a Galactic Empire.



2. It has to be somewhat realistic. Not necessarily real-world realistic, but at least possible in a sci-fi universe.



3. The options presented must be balanced in the way that each has up and downsides. None of them should be the only viable option for any player or faction (unless the faction itself dictates otherwise).



4. The options should help provide a more distinctive "feel", allowing you a bit of "roleplaying". Wanna be the good guys, do so. Want to be evil, no problem.



I strongly believe the refined post from n18991c is following all the rules presented above. We might need to tweak it a bit and fill in a few holes here and there, but i'm happy with the concept in general. Most of the details can be left out, no need to make it more complicated as it is, the Devs can do that on their own if they decide to pick it up. The Anomaly approach on the otherside has a distinctive advantage with using already programmed coding, but otherwise i feel it's too random, is unbalanced and does not allow for the same feel as our proposal.



At this point i'm not even sure if this will ever picked up, since i get the feeling that the devs are going more and more for a multiplayer game, making such proposals as ours rather unecessary. But we have come to far, i'd hate to abandon it now after all the work everyone put into it. So let's complete our task and fill in the gaps and make a pool in a seperate post afterwards.

Oops, fixed that.



Anyway, I believe that at the very least the main idea should deal with invasion based anomalies as well, as they could easily effect how unhappy a population is.

Double post I believe Insani



Thanks for you're suggestion and also thanks for working off the template... I'll have to have a think about it first though but I will get back to you on that I promise

Here's my take on your template:



Assault Methods:



Invasion: The simplest method. This one basically just has your troops assault the enemy population. Small chance of a warfare based anomaly (like the ones from my previous post).



Bombardment: This is a quicker, but riskier method. You bomb the alien population, destroying all of it. High chance of warfare based anomaly, and very small chance that the planet will become barren.



Now, instead of just having a requirement to deal with populations, I suggest we implement the Anomalies I suggested. Although they don't happen ALL the time, and some planets are able to go without rebelling, they are rather common.



Anomaly solutions:



Restoration: Should you create a war-based anomaly, you'll need a restoration team. Depending on the severity of the anomaly, your team will take 3-10 turns to fix it.



Diplomacy: (Impossible for cravers) You are willing to negotiate with the people on the planet. In exchange for a burst of 250 happiness and industry being increased by 500% for a short while, the planet will be restored to it's original owner. Alternatively, you can spend dust to quell rebellions. Large amounts of dust.



Exterminate: Spend a few turns with a fleet docked at a planet to exterminate the entire population. This takes 4-10 turns depending on how much population there is on a planet.



Regulate: Permanently dock a fleet (needs to have a military strength of 3k+ to work) to a planet to regulate it. The fleet will be dismantled and they will go onto the planet to regulate it's citizens, by any means necessary. May lower happiness.



... And that's just the base of what I've got! We could also have a system where some planets are actually happy under your rule, as long as you didn't bombard them, and give you bonuses as long as they have higher happiness than before.

I read this and I like the ideas.

The system from Master of Orion 2 was imo quiet good. Why not just take that one with a little extra spice and adaption to the current mechanics of ES? It goes in that direction anyway.



So, my cents to the topic:



Step 1+2:

You have the upper hand in the system.

Invasion happens automatically, as it is right now, with the extra option of bombardment. The bombardment reduces the time needed to invade, but also destroys buildings and population. Pro and cons are obvious.



Step 3:

Occupation method.

I like the idea of the three versions.

Exterminate/Enslave/Free

Exterminate gives diplomatic mali with the attacked race and maybe others of the same allignement, destroys some buildings in the process, and leaves you as the bad guy with a mediocre system to repopulate.



Enslave and Freedom cause an anomaly on every planet of the system (or on the whole system... I would really like to see system anomalies btw ), both affecting happiness and productivity.



Enslaved drops dust and science big time, leaves production okay and causes medium unhappiness.

Freedom drops industrial production and lowers happiness considerably.



Both anomalies should be removable with the right tech. Where those are placed and how much they cost is a measure of balance to the two "keep the population"-options.



STEP 4 (atomatic)

I would cut the step 4 from the process of decision making though, but would like to bring back the thought of automatic behaviour from earlier in the thread in a slightly simplified form.



Both anomalies caused by occupation have a chance to wear off. The chance per turn is determined by the allignement. Same allignements get higher chances.



Everything up to debate of course, but I wouldn't put too much choices and later options in it. Things should be simple while allowing as much depth as possible. Better complex than complicated.

I see it's time to get involved again here, seeing how things have gone a little off-topic since my last big post...



I noted your last long post Insani and, like Calico, was myself a little surprised that it appeared to go counter to the latest developments we had come up with, most importantly my request that people work off the same template. Importantly, before anyone says anything, Goontrooper was obviously correct when he reminded us all that EVERYONE is welcome to discuss, suggest and criticize in this thread, otherwise what would be the point of having this forum?



However, when discussing, suggesting and criticizing, it is only logical to help carry on the debate to that as of yet invisible goal which we all wish to reach eventually.



Everyone only posting his own ideas and essentially shouting "Me Me, my idea's the best!" (I'm not saying anyone's doing this, it's only an example) is not really helpful, since that would not make it a joint project or debate but would just leave us talking past each other.



An example for how one has to leave one's ego out of this whole thing is that the current stage we've reached obviously has little to do with what I originally suggested, and I find myself disagreeing with Calico and others all the time about various aspects, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing, because my idea isn't the best just because it's mine and I love it.



The whole idea was to finally reach a consensus on a few key aspects which everyone agrees on. Filling them in together, as Calico, Dr_Mox and I did together a few posts back, is a hell of a lot of work, and difficult to achieve.



So please don't take it the wrong way when I suggest we go back to our 4 Steps and try to get this concept to work - a lot of effort and time has gone into it and I would be sad if it would now turn out to have all been a waste of time....



Everyone's input is hugely valuable here, but I would welcome it if, as I had suggested earlier, we could work from the same template and try to make the surrounding bits and pieces, e.g. which advantages or disadvantages should it have or how should it be implemented (as improvements or what?)..... So all it takes, if everyone is fine with the general steps and process, is for the following template to be filled in by everyone with ideas as to advantages, penalties, points etc.....





Step 1: Invade system





Step 2: Select assault method

-EXTERMINATE via orbital bombardment. Advantages/disadvantages of this are:....................................................................................................................................................................................

........................................... and how it could be implemented:......................................................................................................................................................................................................



-INVADE. Advantages/disadvantages of this are:.............................................................................................................................................................................................................................

........................................... and how it could be implemented:......................................................................................................................................................................................................





Step 3: Select occupation method

-SUBJUGATE/DEPOPULATE (reduce alien population and replace with own population) Advantages/disadvantages of this are:..........................................................................................................................

........................................... and how it could be implemented:......................................................................................................................................................................................................



-SUBJUGATE/ENSLAVE (keep alien population as 2nd class citizens) Advantages/disadvantages of this are:.................................................................................................................................................

........................................... and how it could be implemented:......................................................................................................................................................................................................



-GRANT FREEDOM. Advantages/disadvantages of this are:..................................................................................................................................................................................................................

........................................... and how it could be implemented:......................................................................................................................................................................................................





Step 4: Change choice (Optional)

- What this should entail and why...................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................





I sincerely hope that we can all agree on the basic concept of the 4 steps, and I would love to hear your ideas of what they should entail and why, and how it could be implemented the easiest by the Devs. I'm sure you can all do a better job of filling it in than I did in my last, somewhat clumsy, long post - but that's me!

Insani wrote:
I was thinking more like a secondary anomaly slot, maybe even a tertiary one. One for 'invasion based anomalies' (although I guess those could replace normal anomalies), and secondary ones for civilian based anomalies, ie unrest.



I suppose it could be merged. You could merge the anomalies part with the solutions part, and maybe add something else, like 'deploy environmental restoration team', for the invasion anomalies.

In part that could be a mechanism linked into the choices made, consequences and effects of the various options from the suggestions. The coding may already be there given the anomoly feature in place so maybe not as time intensive to attach possibly?

I was thinking more like a secondary anomaly slot, maybe even a tertiary one. One for 'invasion based anomalies' (although I guess those could replace normal anomalies), and secondary ones for civilian based anomalies, ie unrest.



I suppose it could be merged. You could merge the anomalies part with the solutions part, and maybe add something else, like 'deploy environmental restoration team', for the invasion anomalies.

Goontrooper wrote:
This is one of the major areas that needs work. Great ideas here. I am always dissapointed when strategy games with vastly different populations / species don't account for this when worlds are conquered / traded. I also get annoyed when Space Strategy games focus on space combat to the detriment of ground combat. This games actually allows for invasions, but they are way too shallow. We don't need a tactical ground combat mechanic or anything, although some kind of ground combat mode would be great. This has been handled fine in many other games, with the automated combat in Gal Civ II being the best example, since it was fast, kept at the strategic level, and automatic w/ an overall strategy decision. This would mesh well with the way space combat is handled. The main thing is making invasions a bit more interesting, and the results / decisions that go with them deeper.



Calico - I think your response was a bit harsh. This game has emphasized community collaboration on a much higher level than most other games. I think it is a bit arrogant to say that you have already worked out everything, and thus settled the issue. This is about discussing ideas. That is all Insani has been doing. No one 'owns' this issue. No offense - just my view on things.

No offense taken. I never said we own an idea or anything along those lines. But just copypasting another thread into a discussion that has been going on for a week without trying to merge the idea... well thats rude. Like i said, he got a few interesting ideas in there, but they have to be built into what we already have established.



I really can't make any comparsions with GalCiv II, mostly because it's been years since i've played it. Ground Combat would be interesting, but i can't see any possibility to implement anything along those lines. Alien Populations on the other side could be doable and i really hope we can get them.

Insani wrote:
I've read the previous posts, and although I believe they have something, I really think it has more chance of succeeding if it's implemented in an easier manner. Adding them as 'species interaction based' anomalies would ultimately make it easier to program. I apologize if I sound arrogant in how I've been posting. I also think that damage from invasion-based anomalies should be factored in. Your troops on the ground will probably use explosives a lot.

And i apologize if it sounded too harsh. Just copypasting it from your old (and dead)´thread without making any adjustments just seemed... well, lets forget about it. I will take another look into your proposal and see if there is a possibility to merge our ideas.

Anomalies don't make any sense to me, since a invasion is system wide. But maybe it justs needs some tweaking... maybe something along the lines of a system wide event (with it's own place in the UI).... I don't know, but i will think about it.

@Everyone: thanks for staying interested and keeping this thread alive, I'm seeing some great ideas here, so please keep it up!



Now I admit that I haven't had a detailed think about all the ideas people have come up with here, but I fully intend to read up on all of it as soon as possible. In the meantime, let me run my latest concept by you....

I think I've come up with a practical and logical system for how a player could be made to deal with the alien populations in his systems. In a way it's only an expansion of what I already posted earlier at some stage, but this time I tried to think how it could actually be programmable and implementable by the Devs.



Background:

I think that the fate of the alien populations in conquered systems should rest solely in the player's hands and there should be no automated response to what happens to alien populations in one's systems based on the nature of the species. This is particularly important when considering that the decision of what to do with the new subjects helps define what the player's faction is like and where it's heading. Also, and interestingly, letting the player decide whether to exterminate or absorb alien populations will result in a player playing a faction classified essentially as "evil" to suddenly be able to better his race through "good" decisions and, vice versa, a player playing an essentially "good" faction could allow it to become evil - it's all up to the player to figure out what his faction's destiny will be.



Concept:

Bearing in mind that whatever we come up with has to be programmable and implementable, perhaps we should focus on a few distinct options/selections to try and keep it simple and straightforward. Hijacking Dr_Mox's table idea but failing utterly at creating a table myself, I did some thinking on how one would want to deal with alien species and how they would behave if conquered by the player or if, indeed, they were conquering (AI-controlled). I came up with the following idea:



To begin with, the player should ALWAYS have 4 choices available to him after having successfully conquered a system:



- EXTERMINATE - No options.



- REPATRIATE - No options.



- SUBJUGATE - Should the player pick SUBJUGATE, then system improvements such as "birth control", "forced labour camps" etc would become available for the affected system. Perhaps there could also remain in the menu options for things to do at a later stage, for example to "exterminate" or "force repatriation" as punishment should there be unrest or even to "grant freedom" or "grant citizenship" to the subjugated population as a reward for their labour etc. Either way the player should be able to control both subjugated populations as well as their futures as he sees fit.



- GRANT FREEDOM - Should the player pick GRANT FREEDOM, then this would lead to the majority of the alien population departing for their homeworlds, with a minority (impressed with you having granted them freedom and unwilling to leave their homes etc) staying behing and joining your empire. Could lead to alien heroes becoming available. Aliens joining your empire would automatically gain 2nd class citizenship and the player would have options in the menu to upgrade it later on and grant them full citizenship and all rights and so on. Also, some new techs and other bonuses would become available.



When AI-controlled:

Should the species be AI-controlled, then they would behave as follows:

- #HISSHO# (warriors, hive mind, conquerors, disregard of others) -- tendency to subjugate and, in rare cases, exterminate.



- #AMOEBA# (explorers, cosmopolitans, understanding of individualism and societies and cultures) -- tendency to repatriate or grant freedom.



- #CRAVERS# (disregard of others, collective hive mind, consume other species) -- tendency to subjugate/consume.



- #HORATIO# (self-centred, disregard of otherness) -- tendency to repatriate in order to make room for Horatio clones.



- #PILGRIMS# (academics, philosophers, engineers, pro-freedom, pro-individualism) -- tendency to repatriate or grant freedom.



- #SOPHONS# (analysts, philosophers, pro-freedom) -- tendency to repatriate or grant freedom.



- #SOWERS# (mechanical race, develop worlds, collective mind, disregard of otherness, anti-individualism ) -- tendency to exterminate because they have no regard or need for other lifeforms.



- #UNITED EMPIRE# (monarchy, focussed on conquest and control, adaptable) -- tendency to subjugate.



EDIT: Totally forgot: CRAVERS are probably an exception and most races would probably exterminate CRAVERS on the worlds they've conquered...



What do you guys think? I think this 4-choice system is straightforward enough... but please pitch in and let me hear your thoughts!

This is one of the major areas that needs work. Great ideas here. I am always dissapointed when strategy games with vastly different populations / species don't account for this when worlds are conquered / traded. I also get annoyed when Space Strategy games focus on space combat to the detriment of ground combat. This games actually allows for invasions, but they are way too shallow. We don't need a tactical ground combat mechanic or anything, although some kind of ground combat mode would be great. This has been handled fine in many other games, with the automated combat in Gal Civ II being the best example, since it was fast, kept at the strategic level, and automatic w/ an overall strategy decision. This would mesh well with the way space combat is handled. The main thing is making invasions a bit more interesting, and the results / decisions that go with them deeper.



Calico - I think your response was a bit harsh. This game has emphasized community collaboration on a much higher level than most other games. I think it is a bit arrogant to say that you have already worked out everything, and thus settled the issue. This is about discussing ideas. That is all Insani has been doing. No one 'owns' this issue. No offense - just my view on things.

Not that i want to be harsh or something, Isani... but we already developed a concept based on several ideas. That are the 4 pages before you copypasted your idea from your old thread. I really don't wanna discourage anyone from helping, but just ignoring everything we worked out so far and introducing a completly different concept and saying "Vote for me, my old thread is dead and so i copy it to one that still receives attention"... do you get my point? Cause that is how you coming accross when you don't really discuss anything. You have a few interesting ideas there, granted. But you made no effort merging it with our current concept.

Calico wrote:
Pls remember that all options have to be balanced. Bombarding a System already destroys all the population, making the System basically useless after that. I also think that the "back from stone age" is a bit harsh... and somewhat unrealistic. If you use weapons of mass destruction, then there will be permanent damage done to the infrastructure. You sure can rebuild it later, but at the same cost as usual. I'm not saying that all infrastructure would be destroyed, but bombarding surely carries the risk of destroying improvements every turn.



To balance it out, it would be way faster then invasion. Dropping off nukes over all major military and civilian targets does not take that much time, compared to fighting down the resistance.







Anyway, back on to how to move on. It sounds reasonable if we make a new and easy to read version of our proposal and put it on to vote. The easy read version would only contain the core concept.... no storys, no numbers, nothing that isn't neccessary. The better the vote, the higher the chance that the devs (or any modders that are interested) pick it up. OFC we will put a link in there for anyone who is interested and will continue to work on the details, but i strongly believe that we've done most of what we can here. We've narrowed it down, simplified it and added quite a bit of detail. And we lack the understanding of the code and what is possible.... if it gets picked up, the dev/modders will give it their own spin.

First we'll need to come to a conclusion on who's version of this concept is best. Me? I'll obviously be voting for my proposition (one of the last few posts on the previous page).

Fair enough.



STEP ONE: Please introduce an option to invade or bombard.



STEP TWO: Please introduce an option to descide the fate of a planet post invasion.



STEP THREE... throw em bellow

Pls remember that all options have to be balanced. Bombarding a System already destroys all the population, making the System basically useless after that. I also think that the "back from stone age" is a bit harsh... and somewhat unrealistic. If you use weapons of mass destruction, then there will be permanent damage done to the infrastructure. You sure can rebuild it later, but at the same cost as usual. I'm not saying that all infrastructure would be destroyed, but bombarding surely carries the risk of destroying improvements every turn.



To balance it out, it would be way faster then invasion. Dropping off nukes over all major military and civilian targets does not take that much time, compared to fighting down the resistance.







Anyway, back on to how to move on. It sounds reasonable if we make a new and easy to read version of our proposal and put it on to vote. The easy read version would only contain the core concept.... no storys, no numbers, nothing that isn't neccessary. The better the vote, the higher the chance that the devs (or any modders that are interested) pick it up. OFC we will put a link in there for anyone who is interested and will continue to work on the details, but i strongly believe that we've done most of what we can here. We've narrowed it down, simplified it and added quite a bit of detail. And we lack the understanding of the code and what is possible.... if it gets picked up, the dev/modders will give it their own spin.

I suggested something much like that, except with side effects to invasion rather than another option. But making it 20 turns seems a bit foolish. It should be, like all other improvements, influenced by industry. And once they've been bombarded, it shouldn't be impossible to recolonize them. A single colony ship and the population's lively again.

Hey guys a really great discussion here My 2 cents





Hey guys, obviously its still in Beta but currently Invasions are massively dull and strategically shallow. You either conquer a planet or you leave it.



EASY SOLUTION



You enable two options, Invade or Bombard.



Bombarding damages FIDS and lowers production while a health bar depletes turn by turn. If the the bar empties your planet remains yours but becomes 'desolated'. Desolated planets can only build 1 improvement and no ships, they also temporarily loose their 'influence ring' and cant trade. Their one available improvement is just called 'back from the stone age' and maybe takes 20 turns to complete. Once done your planet is fully restored with all its previous system improvements. Any ship can bombard and obviously the time it takes to erode the healthbar is entirely contingent on how much weapon muscle you have.



You could compliment this with a battle screen showing the planet being attacked and firing missiles and stuff back, but I understand thats clearly a lot of work



With invade you take MUCH longer but do no damage to the fids aside from population, the planet becomes yours.



This adds a great deal more strategic depth and clearly offers the player greater choice More importantly its infinitely more realistic and I garuntee you 10 metacritic points if you add it devs Reviews looooooooooooove options!

I was thinking. Maybe say, the Sowers or the Cravers, could use other empire populations as food? Ie automatically reduce the population of the planet they just invaded to provide a large boost to food for ~10 turns?

I really wish for something like this as well, be it to use them as food for cravers, commit genocide, have slave camps or just mind controlling them and using propaganda. Also love the idea of unrest anomalies.



As it is now race doesn't matter that much, nor does it matter what the race on conquered planets are.. I hope we get to see more importance added to this.



At that.. I'd like to see certain planets being more beneficial for some races.....