I haven't read this whole thread, so if I'm backtracking let me know, but if an idea like this is implemented, there would really need to be some sort of racial based stats. Like if you conquer a Craver or Horatio system there's no way of assimilation. That type of thing

agreed, before putting names on things, we have to develop general categories. Yours are a nice start, i guess i need time to think before i add anything.



Although "Extermination" could be handled by just adding a bombard option. No need to exterminate the cravers on the ground if you can just bombard any settlement from a low orbit. Sure, this will destroy any infrastructure as well, but he, no need for insect repellants after that. In some scenarios you might even don't wan't to conquer the planet, beeing happy that it stops posing a thread to your Empire might be enough. Also, Weapons of Mass Destruction tend to work a lot faster then invading a Planet.



Extermination after a Invasion remains a possibility too. Anyone ever seen the Stargate episodes "2001/2010"? The Aschen Confederation had a interesting way of doing that...



I will consult with my copy of GURPS "Reign of Steel". Pretty sure there are a few ideas we could take into consideration in there, even if it's actually about the Earth beeing taken over by 13 different AIs that have to deal with the surviving Human Population.

Calico wrote:
Well, it's in your own hands to stop that.

You mean "our" hands - team effort!

Calico wrote:
I'll try to work some possibilities out, hopefully others can help with that. Words like those in the first post have to be categorized, a few new ones added, some maybe need to be kicked out....

Extermination, work camps, second class citiziens, mind control, birth control, integration, indoctrination, autonomy, vassals..... lots of things to do. this idea needs to be fleshed out and tied to the other ideas floating around. otherwise the devs will never consider it.

Perhaps we should all work on the more general types of categories first before we fill them in with individual themes and/or options e.g. mind control, birth control, indoctrination etc....?



I think the general routes available to the player following a successful invasion of an enemy system should logically consist of the following:











Does that make sense and do you all agree or would you do it differently? I'm excited to hear your ideas!

ElegantCaveman wrote:
Basically, it touches on "culture", which is something that could--depending on how it's implemented--affect all other aspects of gameplay. Implementing something like this in any way which would even remotely resemble depth for the gold release would probably be madness, of course, but that shouldn't stop us from brainstorming and fleshing out solid ideas for future content.

I think that the idea to implement some kind of system that forces the player to deal with the cultural differences of his subjects on conquered worlds would actually be quite important, not only because it simply touches on culture in general but because it also touches on the player's own culture and the route his empire will take i.e. in which direction it will "evolve".



In addition, a requirement to deal with the alien populations in newly conquered systems could severely impact on population happiness, industrial output, research rates (new scientists and different angles etc), diplomacy with other factions etc, as a result of which I would personally consider such a feature quite important to the overall feel of the game. Also, it's only realistic that aliens finding themselves as subject of another species wouldn't just fall in line...



I hope our prayers to the devs will not go unnoticed... lol

Insani wrote:


I think Hissho would 'go down fighting', though.

I don't think so.... sure, the Hissho are a proud race of honorable Warriors. But lets don't forget that we are talking about Civilians here. Scientists, Workers, Farmers, Families, Children and Elders. Even in a "Warrior-Race" these would exist. I howether agree that they are less likely to give in easy. Integrating them would mean going down a long and stony path, most likely including uprisings, guerilla warfare and sabotage of their new Overlords.



Which brings up a interesting point: How easy/hard will it be to integrate a certain Race? UE Citizens are good warriors too, but the civilian population is used to take orders from very distant Emporer and faceless Mega-Corporations. Is Imperial Citizen 0815 really that much interested in who gives the orders, as long as he and Family have something to eat and he gets paid?

Sophons might be more easily persuaded, as long as they retain a bit of freedom. Horatio could be the middle-ground. Seeing their long dream of populating every Planet with beeings like them vanish could be hard.... but they might start seeing that there can be beauty in diversity as well. If they are persuaded enough that is. The Pilgrims have a long History of fighting the Emporer and for believing in things that are greater then themselves. We don't have any Stats yet, but i guess they could be hard to submit.



So, this might be another racial stat or feature.

Hrothgaar wrote:
Perhaps we can get these threads merged or compiled somehow..



Anyway, I think it's a good point. I doubt Cravers, Hissho and Sowers would take kindly to be conquered and would likely fight until the end, letting the planet have a negative political anomaly with a penelty to FIDS. This would, to be honest, tie in nicely to my idea about Orbital Bombardment. Why waste time on supressing a population if you can bomb them back to the stoneage?



EDIT: Also, don't think GalCiv 1/2 had mixed races on planet? MOO3 had it though, don't remember if MOO2 did however...

I really can't remember which game it was.... but i was proud to have a somewhat peaceful Empire that included half a dozen different Species. About the "planetary bombardment", this was one of the options the orignial OP n18991c mentioned. Not really a way of dealing with the population, more like a way of avoiding to have to deal with them.



Anyway, this is one of the main reasons why i think we have so many threads, most of them getting no real or prolonged attention. Cause most of these Ideas are facets of something greater... diplomacy is directly related to governments, governments to how you handle aliens in your empire.... and planetary bombardment likely will impact your relations with others too, might even be consired a atrocity by many. The Cravers might sheer you for it though... who knows.



edit: Obviously, i could need a bit of help here.... i take pride in knowing the stuff i talk about, but i never played Craves, Hissho and the newer races so far. So please, if you know some lore that would support/disprove any of the theories of mine, pls say so.

Insani wrote:
I suggested a lot of ideas similar to that in my thread.



I think Hissho would 'go down fighting', though.

Perhaps we can get these threads merged or compiled somehow..



Anyway, I think it's a good point. I doubt Cravers, Hissho and Sowers would take kindly to be conquered and would likely fight until the end, letting the planet have a negative political anomaly with a penelty to FIDS. This would, to be honest, tie in nicely to my idea about Orbital Bombardment. Why waste time on supressing a population if you can bomb them back to the stoneage?



EDIT: Also, don't think GalCiv 1/2 had mixed races on planet? MOO3 had it though, don't remember if MOO2 did however...

Calico wrote:
Which Game had the "mixed races" on the same Planet/System approach? MOO2-3? GalCiv2?

I only know of Master of Orion 3, first-hand. Puggish mentioned Master of Orion 2 as well. No idea about GalCiv1/2.

LoserPolice wrote:
I could see some sort of random anomaly developing on planets you conquer. Stuff like a "General Strike" that dramatically reduces industry, or "Armed unrest" that decreases FIDS and has a chance to get rid of 1 population every few turns, that sort of stuff. You could even have race-specific anomalies on conquered planets, too. Sophons might have something like a "Sabotage campaign" that specifically undermines science and industry, Hissho could commit honorable mass suicide, etc. Most of these would go away on their own after enough turns pass and the conquered people accept their lot, but it could also be accelerated by researching and applying the appropriate technologies.



Cravers would probably just commit genocide on conquered species and replace them with more cravers or something like that, to help them deal with the problems that rebellion penalties would pose towards their conquest-oriented playstyle.



Heck, you could design it so that the chance of unrest anomalies appearing depends on the happiness of the system when you conquer it. This would go hand in hand with espionage (whenever it gets added) so that you could sabotage and propagandize planets prior to invasion to make them unhappy with their prior rulers and more accepting of their new ones. This would add a nice layer of depth, especially if the tax system gets overhauled so it isn't always best to keep taxes low and everyone ecstatic.

I suggested a lot of ideas similar to that in my thread.



I think Hissho would 'go down fighting', though.

n18991c wrote:
Aw, I hope it doesn't come to that, although with the amount of activity in the forums it wouldn't surprise me

Well, it's in your own hands to stop that.



So, 24h is almost over and there seems to be some interest in this idea. First, i have to ask: Which Game had the "mixed races" on the same Planet/System approach? MOO2-3? GalCiv2? That could tie into the system very nicely.

I'll try to work some possibilities out, hopefully others can help with that. Words like those in the first post have to be categorized, a few new ones added, some maybe need to be kicked out....

Extermination, work camps, second class citiziens, mind control, birth control, integration, indoctrination, autonomy, vassals..... lots of things to do. this idea needs to be fleshed out and tied to the other ideas floating around. otherwise the devs will never consider it.

Heh maybe you dont get an option but, based on your faction, an automatic response to successfully invading the system e.g.

Cravers - all pop removed for each pop gain X amount of , all infrastructure removed for each piece of infrastructure gain x amount of



This could turn into a table the game "looks" at to decide on what the auto response is based on who they encountered too because of the fact some races storywise dont appear to make good readily obedient subjects e.g.



[TABLE="class:grid,width:50%,align:center"] Conqueror Amoeba Cravers Hissho Horatio Pilgrims Sophons Sowers United Emp. Amoeba Repatriation Exterminate Assimilate Assimilate Assimilate Assimilate Exterminate Assimilate Cravers Liquidation Liquidation Liquidation Liquidation Liquidation Liquidation Liquidation Liquidation Hissho Subjugate Exterminate Subjugate Subjugate Subjugate Subjugate Exterminate Subjugate Horatio Repopulate Exterminate Repopulate Repatriation Repopulate Repopulate Exterminate Repopulate Pilgrims Reeducate Exterminate Reeducate Reeducate Reeducation Reeducate Exterminate Reducate Sophons Quarantine Quarantine Quarantine Quarantine Quarantine Repatriation Quarantine Quarantine Sowers Harvest Harvest Harvest Harvest Harvest Harvest Harvest Harvest United Emp. Subjugate Exterminate Subjugate Subjugate Subjugate Subjugate Exterminate Subjugate

[/TABLE]

I could see some sort of random anomaly developing on planets you conquer. Stuff like a "General Strike" that dramatically reduces industry, or "Armed unrest" that decreases FIDS and has a chance to get rid of 1 population every few turns, that sort of stuff. You could even have race-specific anomalies on conquered planets, too. Sophons might have something like a "Sabotage campaign" that specifically undermines science and industry, Hissho could commit honorable mass suicide, etc. Most of these would go away on their own after enough turns pass and the conquered people accept their lot, but it could also be accelerated by researching and applying the appropriate technologies.



Cravers would probably just commit genocide on conquered species and replace them with more cravers or something like that, to help them deal with the problems that rebellion penalties would pose towards their conquest-oriented playstyle.



Heck, you could design it so that the chance of unrest anomalies appearing depends on the happiness of the system when you conquer it. This would go hand in hand with espionage (whenever it gets added) so that you could sabotage and propagandize planets prior to invasion to make them unhappy with their prior rulers and more accepting of their new ones. This would add a nice layer of depth, especially if the tax system gets overhauled so it isn't always best to keep taxes low and everyone ecstatic.

I posted a suggestion similar to this one, due to not seeing this topic - and this is definitely an important issue. The Hissho and Cravers won't just sit by while the Sophons populate their planet!



I think it should be treated as anomalies started when you invade the system, though, with research unlocking 'treatments' for civil unrest. But it shouldn't be something that happens on every planet - some planets' populations might be, say, on a lava planet, and are so overworked and harshly treated that they don't care.

Yes this is a potentially big area to have alot of fun with and really see the impact of your choices and activity.



Now you conquered the planet, just how conquered is it and what are you going to do next?



I mean for example dealing with a Craver population should not be the same as every other culture when they are invaded, I suspect a ton of bug spray for a start maybe...I also suspect they are not going to celebrate your victory over them regardless of how much you feed them. lol



As for the Hissho? Wouldn't they all commit mass suicide rather than have the dishonourable indignity of anyone conquering them successfully? Maybe they "scorched earth" their planet and take the enemy invaders down with them too? Voila! instant Asteroid Fields!



What about the Horatio? I could see them all throwing themselves at the enemy regardless in some sort of vanity rage at their perfection being imperfected, they could be one of the most difficult to conquer conventionally, unless ofc they are into passive resistance and turn their systems into ungovernable nightmares...



Lots to investigate and plenty of wishful thinking for this part of the game.

I like it. As simple as that.

There's already an extremely-rudimentary version of this: when you take over an enemy world, you receive a massive Approval penalty which lifts slowly as the population is "assimilated", I guess.



I fully agree that ES would be well-served by expanding on this aspect of the game, though.



I never played Master of Orion 2, but I did play 3, and much like puggish, the way they handled this aspect was one of the things I liked best about it. As I recall (correct me if I'm wrong, puggish?), you could even find some "indigenous population" on uncolonized worlds which would affect your colony if you established one there (such as allowing for the building of special ships and the like). This really added a whole other layer to colonization strategy.



This comes back to something I said elsewhere: factions should be more than simply a list of traits. In having to deal with an alien culture after conquering a system, the enemy ceases to be nothing more than numbers in a list, and instead becomes something more tangible, something more personal. It "humanizes" them (for a lack of a better term) which, in turn, heightens the player's involvement and connection with the gameplay experience.

Calico wrote:
Only reason why not to implement this one could be that it's too much of a workload and this would be a minor feature.

It would only be minor if they chose to make it minor; there's definitely the potential for depth, here.



Basically, it touches on "culture", which is something that could--depending on how it's implemented--affect all other aspects of gameplay.



Implementing something like this in any way which would even remotely resemble depth for the gold release would probably be madness, of course, but that shouldn't stop us from brainstorming and fleshing out solid ideas for future content.

Calico wrote:
Goverments

Yeah to tie in these options with some sort of government type, and therefore empire wide happiness would be nice.

Calico wrote:
I would like to expand on this idea, but before i go into more detail, lets see what the others think. or if this one gets burried on page 3 within 24 hours.

Aw, I hope it doesn't come to that, although with the amount of activity in the forums it wouldn't surprise me

One of my favorite bits of Master of Orion 2 (and yes, even 3). Alien races persisted on planets after you conquered them. They weren’t just population points that were transferred between owner. The super-smart aliens were great researchers no matter which empire ruled them and the rock monster race could still be used to colonize radioactive worlds without penalty. In MOO3, you could even recruit them into your armies and use their unique abilities in battle. Aquatic aliens performed well when fighting on water worlds, etc.



The idea of building up a Star Control or Halo style multiracial Galactic Empire always seemed like such a cool idea to me, and unfortunately it’s something that most games don’t bother modeling. I know this is probably too big a change to make it into the game, but keep it in mind for a future expansion...

For Starters, i agree that it would be cool if you could decide about the fate of a population of a conquered Solar System. It's a topic or even a maintheme of entire Sci-Fi Movies, TV-Series, Books and Games. To name a few popular ones: Stargate, Star Trek, Fallen Skies, Asimovs Foundation (although this one had no aliens), Star Wars, Starship Troopers, Mass Effect.... and the list goes on and on.



Why not include it? Extermination, work camps, second class citiziens, mind control, birth control, integration, indoctrination.... to name a few possibilitys what is possible. Depending on the Race and Cultural Background every race has it's own Agenda...or maybe a couple.



Only reason why not to implement this one could be that it's too much of a workload and this would be a minor feature. Although i would say i could greatly add to the feel of a race as whole. This concept could also tie into the topic of Goverments.... afterall it could be a interesting thing how the folks back home like the things you do on the frontlines.



I would like to expand on this idea, but before i go into more detail, lets see what the others think. or if this one gets burried on page 3 within 24 hours.

Calico wrote:
Hmmm, nice start. although i see some problems with that too... I still like the approach of making it part of the "Government" and you get to decide what route you wanna take.... limited to a few options, depending on your chosen faction (or alignment).



Anyway, looking at the table i see some obvious misstakes/problems. Note that this is highly subjective, i try to be constructive, but we only have very little lore to go on right now. i'm very thankful for any input we get here, pls don't get me wrong.



1. What is the term "repopulate"? i get the general meaning, but i have trouble to imagin it. Replace the Population slowly?



2. Why would the Sophons want to quarantine everyone? Quarantine is a term that doesn't really suit the task at hand i believe, you usally try to avoid contact with anyone that is quarantined. How are you supposed to keep control of a quarantined planet? Judging from the Lore we have, the Pilgrims likely have a rather good relationsship with the Sophons.



3. "good readily obedient subjects" : Well, if you choose to be the "Good Guy of the Galaxy" you know that this also comes with a pricetag. Every race seems to have a background that suggests that they could be integrated in some way or the other, givin enough time and effort.



With the exception of Cravers and Sowers, but even those could be persuaded... i mean we are talking of highly developed species here. Maybe write a few lines of code for the Sowers... or make them understand that you are also seeking the endless. pretty sure they could be nice partners for the Pilgrims (who seek everything that endless left, even their originial homeworld). Not sure about the Cravers, but so far they are the race i generally don't undestand very good. Do they have a hive-mind?



The Hissho wouldn't give in easily... but on the other hand, they have a long history of conflicts on a tribal level. Meaning that submission to the winning side is part of their culture too. Not impossible to widen that to Aliens.







I'll go back to the scratchboard, i believe this is a very interesting thing we have here. Keep on the good work, this table helped a lot. Lets breathe some life into this idea!

Apoologies on not providing a key.



I had a rather large reply to this but unfortunately the forum timed out and I lost it completely.



Here goes an abridged to answer your points all based off the ES info I know from such sources as the Wikia etc



First things first, the rate of converting an invaded population to your own colonial and obedient possession would be drawn along the lines of the degrees to which your Faction's Alignment differ from the invaded Faction Colony and the degrees of Gameplay (representing the cultural differences) your Factions Alignment differ from the invaded Faction Colony.



Therefore as an example like for like would find it much faster to bring into the fold than diametrically opposite Factions on two counts who would take along time to control.



On your points to clarify:

1: Horatio slowly replaces the invaded population using the biomass to form his new clone citizens. A slow, and brutal method of pure wicked vanity.



2: I suspect Sophons Quarantine (for want of a better word) to protect themselves and the invaded, to prevent further blooodshed until both sides agree to mutual protection and beneficial taxation, integrating into Sophon society safely, either that or getting brainwashed in a nice way. i.e. we are dropping you food parcels and helping to replace your lost infrastructure, please believe us we are here to help not hurt you...its all for your own good. In the case of Quarantining Sowers and Cravers they are literally taking them apart and reprogramming/re-genecoding them to operate under Sophon control, probably the only race capable of attempting this.



3: As explained above about Alignment and Gameplay parameters for each faction.



Cravers will simply devour to feed the hive so I doubt anything is left alive after an invasion. The word diplomacy is probably not in their dictionary, that was eaten along time ago. They would never pacify, as they are hell bent on devouring. So yes they would bite the hand that attempted to feed them and then some! Sophons, lucky them, probably found a way round this and have some nice "smoke" (bee hive ref)to calm them on the surface. Everyone else just uses nukes, flame throwers and a hefty amount of DDT. ^^



Sowers are like the Borg in some ways, totally programmed to ignore unless interrupted from their programming. So invading their worlds is the equivalent to really provoking them from their duties so you would not be able to do anything with them at all as the entire population of Sowers on the ground are seeking your holy consecrated destruction so they can then be left alone to continue what they were built to do. Sophons, lucky them probably found the "off" switch in their research. Eitherway they are going to try and find it, they have plenty of test subjects.



I might return to that chart and give a story version for the Amoeba as an example of how each process is interpreted according to their galactic view (from the info I have at hand). Maybe... I might write it on a word doc first hehe