puggish wrote:
One of my favorite bits of Master of Orion 2 (and yes, even 3). Alien races persisted on planets after you conquered them. They weren’t just population points that were transferred between owner. The super-smart aliens were great researchers no matter which empire ruled them and the rock monster race could still be used to colonize radioactive worlds without penalty. In MOO3, you could even recruit them into your armies and use their unique abilities in battle. Aquatic aliens performed well when fighting on water worlds, etc.



The idea of building up a Star Control or Halo style multiracial Galactic Empire always seemed like such a cool idea to me, and unfortunately it’s something that most games don’t bother modeling. I know this is probably too big a change to make it into the game, but keep it in mind for a future expansion...

I didn't like MOO3 but coming back to 2 at least, yeah I liked that as well. I think there should be some kind of negativity when you conquer a system, maybe both in happiness (they did just have their homes bombed) and also in FIDS output (while they rebuild their homes instead of working in the factories and labs)

AtoningUnifex wrote:
There's some great ideas in here. I don't really have much to add other than my support for what's being discussed.

thank you very much for your support. Every post helps!



Maybe we can make it a poll, when it's a bit more fleshed out. Right now we still looking at a pile of bones.

AtoningUnifex wrote:
There's some great ideas in here. I don't really have much to add other than my support for what's being discussed.



One thing that i saw earlier that i especially liked was the idea of a cultural takeover of a planet (as seen in GalCiv2). Currently i don't see much point to the influence ranges of the planets otherwise.

Yep thats a good point AtoningUnifex, I first expected that when I was playing, seeing cultural influence have a play on turning over systems to your control under excessive cultural pressure rather than a mysterious technology that block space travel as it expands out, thats pretty impressive tech!

There's some great ideas in here. I don't really have much to add other than my support for what's being discussed.



One thing that i saw earlier that i especially liked was the idea of a cultural takeover of a planet (as seen in GalCiv2). Currently i don't see much point to the influence ranges of the planets otherwise.

Calico wrote:
I guess i will wait until tomorrow before posting anything more, maybe the traits of the newer races allow for some more insight into the department.

True, that will help flesh things out some more.



I get the impression that the Sowers are some sort of machine that the Endless forgot to switch off so every single unit of the greater whole is singlemindedly following whatever the last setting it was left with the last time the Endless were around.



The Alignment system is quite abstract in many ways but yes your right its simple, understandable and I would suspect effective, rpgs use similar systems and I dont think the programming would be that particularly ground breaking to sort.



As for the Sophons, well they are Good Aligned, so could this make them more insidious with their tactics in how they go about a successful invasion? Maybe they shouldnt have the capacity to invade at all. They intrigue me because if it weren't for their alignment I could see them vivisecting everything in sight in their quest for knowledge. The reality you pointed out about the invasion process may not fit with how Sophons would even attempt an invasion, maybe they just knock everything out with a bio agent and then reprogram/brainwash after that? 1,2,3 snap! Your a Sophon mindslave! oO'



I do take your point about Cravers regurgitating new Cravers from the captured population in a even more sick version of what the Horatio would do but I still dont think any race other than Sophons would be able to manage a freshly conquered star system full of them wihout resorting to Ol'faithfull Napalm in the Morning.



Its a great topic to discuss!

Dr_Mox wrote:
Apoologies on not providing a key.



I had a rather large reply to this but unfortunately the forum timed out and I lost it completely.

It's all good, happens to me all the time... now i strg-c everything before even trying to post.

Dr_Mox wrote:
Here goes an abridged to answer your points all based off the ES info I know from such sources as the Wikia etc



First things first, the rate of converting an invaded population to your own colonial and obedient possession would be drawn along the lines of the degrees to which your Faction's Alignment differ from the invaded Faction Colony and the degrees of Gameplay (representing the cultural differences) your Factions Alignment differ from the invaded Faction Colony.



Therefore as an example like for like would find it much faster to bring into the fold than diametrically opposite Factions on two counts who would take along time to control.

I'm not entirly sure about this... just because factions have different alignments. I'd like to see this handled individually, more like a modifier tied to a race. My example of the UE a few posts back was that although they are "fearless warriors" they might be easily persuaded to join another faction because the civilian populations is used to getting orders from a far away Emporer and beeing ruled by MegaCorps in his name. The workers, farmers may not give a shit about who is giving the orders, as long as they have food and get their paychecks.



Still, your System as one thing really going for it. It's simpel and easily understandable which is a very good thing.

Dr_Mox wrote:
On your points to clarify:

1: Horatio slowly replaces the invaded population using the biomass to form his new clone citizens. A slow, and brutal method of pure wicked vanity.

Well, it's brutal alright. so, workcamps for the population, while introducing Birth Control of some sort. And then as fast as the cloning labs can work, turn population into gensoup and replace with Horatios. It kinda suits the Horatio. After all, the other races are inferior to them.

Dr_Mox wrote:
2: I suspect Sophons Quarantine (for want of a better word) to protect themselves and the invaded, to prevent further blooodshed until both sides agree to mutual protection and beneficial taxation, integrating into Sophon society safely, either that or getting brainwashed in a nice way. i.e. we are dropping you food parcels and helping to replace your lost infrastructure, please believe us we are here to help not hurt you...its all for your own good. In the case of Quarantining Sowers and Cravers they are literally taking them apart and reprogramming/re-genecoding them to operate under Sophon control, probably the only race capable of attempting this.

Hmm....Sry, i don't think this will work. When you invasion a System, you will be on the ground, seizing control over the installations. Every Invasion will start very similar.... with a occupation of all important civilian and military targets. How it goes from there, that is something we have to discuss further.

Dr_Mox wrote:
3: As explained above about Alignment and Gameplay parameters for each faction.



Cravers will simply devour to feed the hive so I doubt anything is left alive after an invasion. The word diplomacy is probably not in their dictionary, that was eaten along time ago. They would never pacify, as they are hell bent on devouring. So yes they would bite the hand that attempted to feed them and then some! Sophons, lucky them, probably found a way round this and have some nice "smoke" (bee hive ref)to calm them on the surface. Everyone else just uses nukes, flame throwers and a hefty amount of DDT. ^^



Sowers are like the Borg in some ways, totally programmed to ignore unless interrupted from their programming. So invading their worlds is the equivalent to really provoking them from their duties so you would not be able to do anything with them at all as the entire population of Sowers on the ground are seeking your holy consecrated destruction so they can then be left alone to continue what they were built to do. Sophons, lucky them probably found the "off" switch in their research. Eitherway they are going to try and find it, they have plenty of test subjects.



I might return to that chart and give a story version for the Amoeba as an example of how each process is interpreted according to their galactic view (from the info I have at hand). Maybe... I might write it on a word doc first hehe

@cravers: Even a large Craver Fleet can't eat the entire Population of a Solar System within a single turn, i imagine something like the Horatios. Instead of turning them into Clones, they will feed on them and reproduce faster thx to the abundance of fresh meat. More like a heavy Bonus to food production (or the entire FIDS), while reducing the "old" population every turn.

If the Cravers get conquered, i don't think the Sophons are the only race that could come up with a solution other than DDT. One of the earlier Techs in the science/production tree is rudimentary telepathy after all. Maybe it's possible to influence them that way, basically making your own artifical Hive Mind (do Cravers even have a Hive mind?). Maybe use pheromons or dust? Dust has a history of altering minds, with more understanding it could be used in a more controlled way.

Or on a second thought, maybe DDT and Flamethrowers are the better solution.



@Sowers The problem i have here is the bit of lore we have suggests that they truly have somekind of Hivemind. Those tend to be hard to control/influence, especially if they are hellbend on a holy mission. The question really is, how sentient is that hive? Can the connection be seperated? If not, will the Hivemind be ready to listen to reason (this also ties into the question of diplomatic options)?



I guess i will wait until tomorrow before posting anything more, maybe the traits of the newer races allow for some more insight into the department.

The Space Empires games did something like this if I remember right they also had immigration between empires so you could end up with planets with populations from many races and would receive bonuses and penalties accordingly.



I like the idea.

I would prefer to be able to chose how I handed the population on a case by case basis, with limited options according to your faction, research, influence and the other faction.



I also like the idea of changing or adding anomalies of the planet.

For instance say I kill or remove the population(spawning neutral refugee ships maybe) I would find ruins or deserted cities depending on how you go about it.



Also if you remove the population with refugee ships you could make it so other factions can interact with them letting them go to other planets or in Cravers(maybe others) case eat/destroy them for resources.

Great idea, but I am unsure whether this should be handled as an Empire wide option, separated by species, or a case by case basis.



If it were separated by species it could change your relationship with a given empire based on how you treated them as well as limiting options given with certain race, i.e. you can't naturalized Cravers

Hrothgaar wrote:
Perhaps we can get these threads merged or compiled somehow..

I think that would be a good idea, that's why I told Insani about this thread and invited them to join us here. Too many good ideas fall through the cracks due to core topics being split into many threads.



I'll ask a mod if they can help with that next time I see one online (mods: if you see this, please consider merging this thread with this one).

n18991c wrote:
I think that the idea to implement some kind of system that forces the player to deal with the cultural differences of his subjects on conquered worlds would actually be quite important, not only because it simply touches on culture in general but because it also touches on the player's own culture and the route his empire will take.

Absolutely. I really liked the importance of Culture in Civ (IV, I think?), and how with strong enough culture, you could peacefully assimilate nearby towns from the enemy (regardless of your diplomatic relation with them).



Also, I had almost as much fun reading the Master of Orion III manual as I did actually playing the game, as it contained tons of lore and history about the game world, which I found quite interesting.



Considering ES has some very interesting lore and history of its own, I would very much love for this to have a more direct effect on actual gameplay.

Dr_Mox wrote:

vs Conquered --->

[TABLE="class:grid,width:50%,align:center"] Conqueror Amoeba Cravers Hissho Horatio Pilgrims Sophons Sowers United Emp. Amoeba Repatriation Exterminate Assimilate Assimilate Assimilate Assimilate Exterminate Assimilate Cravers Liquidation Liquidation Liquidation Liquidation Liquidation Liquidation Liquidation Liquidation Hissho Subjugate Exterminate Subjugate Subjugate Subjugate Subjugate Exterminate Subjugate Horatio Repopulate Exterminate Repopulate Repatriation Repopulate Repopulate Exterminate Repopulate Pilgrims Reeducate Exterminate Reeducate Reeducate Reeducation Reeducate Exterminate Reducate Sophons Quarantine Quarantine Quarantine Quarantine Quarantine Repatriation Quarantine Quarantine Sowers Harvest Harvest Harvest Harvest Harvest Harvest Harvest Harvest United Emp. Subjugate Exterminate Subjugate Subjugate Subjugate Subjugate Exterminate Subjugate

[/TABLE]

Nice table! I don't think I'd like things to be fully-automated instead of at least giving us some options, but I like where this is going, and I definitely like the idea of there being a considerable variety of potential outcomes based on faction relationships.



As much as the same options/reactions to being conquered being the same for every race would still be an improvement from the present system (simply an Approval penalty), going into more detail and making the whole thing faction/race-dependent would add a great amount of depth to the feature.

Requirement to deal with alien populations in conquered systems





While recently playing ES as UE I invaded and, following an extremely long and hard struggle, finally conquered a Sophon system which I discovered was extremely well developed and throbbing with (over)populated planets...



It then occurred to me that, essentially, this system was now simply mine, although in reality it would have been full of planets populated with Sophons who now found themselves under UE rule which in reality they would have been at the very least fearful of and, at worst, angry about...



I'm wondering now if it wouldn't perhaps be a cool feature of ES if one somehow had to win over the local population first, not just by giving them colonial rights etc which already exists but by perhaps constructing cultural exchange centres and this way slowly begin to absorb the alien populations into one's on empire...



In addition it would be cool if one could decide what to do with the conquered populations. For example, it would have been interesting if I had had the option to











I just think it would be cool if there was a requirement to "deal" with newly conquered systems since I don't see why the millions of beings living there should suddenly love my being their new master. And considering that they are members of a different species, I don't see why they should love me ever unless I try to win them over...



What do you guys think?

n18991c wrote:
essentially on side regarding the reeducation programme feature, although this may apply more to humans such as UE reeducating pilgrims etc, don't you think? There are, after all, quite obvious inter-species differences to overcome between, for example, UE humans and hissho which a reeducation programme alone may not be enough to solve... brings me back to features such as cultural exchange etc which would be needed in addition.

I think reeducation WOULD be enough. With specialists armed with powerful techniques and a mastery of the mind...

I like the current way the game handles conquest. The actual process for dealing with the indigenous population is just fluff.



Perhaps someone cares to write a novice based on their actions in the game, and I might actually read it.



Games by design are an abstract simulation of reality and physical processes. With the ambiguity, I can be left with my dreams of better times--well, not really, its just a game.



********

Actual suggestion: I like the chart from a few posts ago. Maybe for empire creation, you can set your default orientation towards other factions, and choose your method of handling specific factions. Maybe have the ability to alter the stances during the game also.

Dr_Mox wrote:
Heh maybe you dont get an option but, based on your faction, an automatic response to successfully invading the system e.g.

Cravers - all pop removed for each pop gain X amount of , all infrastructure removed for each piece of infrastructure gain x amount of



This could turn into a table the game "looks" at to decide on what the auto response is based on who they encountered too because of the fact some races storywise dont appear to make good readily obedient subjects e.g.

vs Conquered --->

[TABLE="class:grid,width:50%,align:center"] Conqueror Amoeba Cravers Hissho Horatio Pilgrims Sophons Sowers United Emp. Amoeba Repatriation Exterminate Assimilate Assimilate Assimilate Assimilate Exterminate Assimilate Cravers Liquidation Liquidation Liquidation Liquidation Liquidation Liquidation Liquidation Liquidation Hissho Subjugate Exterminate Subjugate Subjugate Subjugate Subjugate Exterminate Subjugate Horatio Repopulate Exterminate Repopulate Repatriation Repopulate Repopulate Exterminate Repopulate Pilgrims Reeducate Exterminate Reeducate Reeducate Reeducation Reeducate Exterminate Reducate Sophons Quarantine Quarantine Quarantine Quarantine Quarantine Repatriation Quarantine Quarantine Sowers Harvest Harvest Harvest Harvest Harvest Harvest Harvest Harvest United Emp. Subjugate Exterminate Subjugate Subjugate Subjugate Subjugate Exterminate Subjugate

[/TABLE]

Hmmm, nice start. although i see some problems with that too... I still like the approach of making it part of the "Government" and you get to decide what route you wanna take.... limited to a few options, depending on your chosen faction (or alignment).



Anyway, looking at the table i see some obvious misstakes/problems. Note that this is highly subjective, i try to be constructive, but we only have very little lore to go on right now. i'm very thankful for any input we get here, pls don't get me wrong.



1. What is the term "repopulate"? i get the general meaning, but i have trouble to imagin it. Replace the Population slowly?



2. Why would the Sophons want to quarantine everyone? Quarantine is a term that doesn't really suit the task at hand i believe, you usally try to avoid contact with anyone that is quarantined. How are you supposed to keep control of a quarantined planet? Judging from the Lore we have, the Pilgrims likely have a rather good relationsship with the Sophons.



3. "good readily obedient subjects" : Well, if you choose to be the "Good Guy of the Galaxy" you know that this also comes with a pricetag. Every race seems to have a background that suggests that they could be integrated in some way or the other, givin enough time and effort.



With the exception of Cravers and Sowers, but even those could be persuaded... i mean we are talking of highly developed species here. Maybe write a few lines of code for the Sowers... or make them understand that you are also seeking the endless. pretty sure they could be nice partners for the Pilgrims (who seek everything that endless left, even their originial homeworld). Not sure about the Cravers, but so far they are the race i generally don't undestand very good. Do they have a hive-mind?



The Hissho wouldn't give in easily... but on the other hand, they have a long history of conflicts on a tribal level. Meaning that submission to the winning side is part of their culture too. Not impossible to widen that to Aliens.







I'll go back to the scratchboard, i believe this is a very interesting thing we have here. Keep on the good work, this table helped a lot. Lets breathe some life into this idea!

Dr_Mox wrote:
Heh maybe you dont get an option but, based on your faction, an automatic response to successfully invading the system e.g.

Cravers - all pop removed for each pop gain X amount of , all infrastructure removed for each piece of infrastructure gain x amount of

Nice table Dr_Mox, loving the direction this discussion is taking, we're developing some excellent ideas here, keep it up!

essentially on side regarding the reeducation programme feature, although this may apply more to humans such as UE reeducating pilgrims etc, don't you think? There are, after all, quite obvious inter-species differences to overcome between, for example, UE humans and hissho which a reeducation programme alone may not be enough to solve... brings me back to features such as cultural exchange etc which would be needed in addition.

Exactly what I suggested in my thread - the primary method to cure civil unrest would be a 'reeducation program' research ability to 'reeducate' the masses. After unlocking it you can dock a ship to the system and after a few turns the reeducation will be complete.

Kingherod wrote:
if you conquer a Craver or Horatio system there's no way of assimilation. That type of thing

I suppose you're right, although even among the Cravers or Horatio there may be defectors or dissidents etc who might wish to join your empire now that they have the chance to do so... Alternatively, you could indoctrinate or brain wash them into wanting to join your empire...

@hrothgaar (not quoting because of some problems. :v)



Yeah, it'd be a good idea to merge them.



I think they should slowly reduce population, though. I imagine the Sowers would be the strongest faction of them all in terms of counterattacks. Or maybe I'm remembering them wrong. I imagine they'd make good super-AIs.