Yzaxtol wrote:
In my opinion you need the transports (or ships that are carrying Invasion modules) to lead an invasion. The ships in Starwars sacrifice quite alot of tonnage to house ground assault regiments instead of dedicating all of their space for Pew Pew space combat.

But considering all of their weapons are also small (No large battleships guns) just like in ES it acts in the same way basic engines, life support, crew quarters and others act, its free, you get it for free.



And if you have ever attacked a multi planet system you will find the need for invasion modules being very real (Unless you like waiting for 20 turn for a conquest.)

All ground combat proposals are collected in the first proposal for inclusion of a ground combat system: /#/endless-space/forum/28-game-design/thread/12341-invasions-and-orbitals-strikes-alike-to-the-space-combat

Renamed the thread to reflect its content, linked it to the collection thread and moved it to the archives.

Yes i agree with you that ground combat should take more than one turn.

In this idea its posted that is should take few turn with fliping regions controled by player A and B.

1 turn battle to get whole planet would be stupid. Honestly how armies can conquere whole planet in 1 day/ month/year ?

transport ships can be and here are dedicated ships with only cargo module useing (ship power - that exist already in game) as tonage for ground forces.





"--planetary fight should take more than 1 turn ( if player or AI dont poses huge amount of forces etc like in space battle --- space ship power."



"player would see planet splited to regions with borders or cartography planet with lines streight and up crossing each other. Like in atlas map is or in any other map

--- as the fight progress player would see regions geting from red (AI) to blue (player) or blue to red (colors depends ofc on color nations that we chose on start of the game)"



"-- there is no need for new space ship (like drop ship) there is already in game option for melee power of ship. This power would be space/tonage for ground forces."



so basically we can but we dont must add aditional ship dedicated to transport armies.

Idea as i read other post is that ships dedicaded for transport are only for transport so for example corvette clas ships is only build with cargo, and other modules dedicated for ground forces and dont have uber beams, missiles, guns, that other ships dedicated to fight with other space ships have.

So basicle corvette can be armored too teeth or corvette defenseless equiped with modules for ground forces.

So we dont add another ship class or made ship only able to transport.

Its custom build as we can do now.

More beams less shields, more flack less rail gun (depends on tonage and players idea how ship should be equiped).

You can do transport ship with 1 module and have good defence but you wont load a lot of forces to it cus tonage for it will be low.



"But if you guys are set on simulating battles, I say have them spread out over a few turns in the form of a push (Make winning slightly quicker if left to passively win, but with the possibility to slow down the attack if you take many casualty's) with all the flare of a interstellar invasion." -- good hint

I still don't like the idea of invasion transports, I still prefer the idea of all ships being able to invade, with invasion modules being multipliers to what numbers of troops your ships can carry (Or are, if its the sowers as they are reapers.)



I also would find it a shame to take an entire system in 1 turn because of a 'battle'. It is an entire system! not a city or even single planet! Wars are not quick and that would make warmongering even better when compared.



Long sieges would also allow us to add more immersion, like fighting the space stations, all the way down to the ally way gun fights and even huge titans running around.





But if you guys are set on simulating battles, I say have them spread out over a few turns in the form of a push (Make winning slightly quicker if left to passively win, but with the possibility to slow down the attack if you take many casualty's) with all the flare of a interstellar invasion.

I think this is a great idea and it sounds like a lot of new content added to the game



I would like to see a simple version added now, just the cards and battle video added and then all the other things can be added in time



I voted yes, lets get this done

Updated.



2D map would be nice and i think would be easier to implement (but who knows)

In my opinion if it is in 2D or 3D will make a deal. The key is to add just this option. How its implementet its in hands of devs. I will be happy with 2d and 3d with + for 3D

Planes yes can be too much but we can use planes like card for example for option BOMB FROM ORBIT thing.



radio - transmissions are very important and will add a lot of fun into the game !! :] I am glad that someone is thinking about this in the same way as me.



ye "blow target population up" was an option describet as DESTROY FROM ORBIT and it should work as raze system mechanic just to destroy everything on the planet to for example from tundra planet make lava or borrean planet ;]

Personaly i hope this idea upgraded with yours idea guys wont be so technicaly (game code) hard to do. Would be nice if dev take a voice and tell what is real and posible to do and what is our dreaming :P

This is going to happen (I hope) when this idea will be taken to consideration by them .



For now we should think about what more to add or what can be cut in this system to have most enjoable implemented thing.



ps. Remember to vote guys its very important.

I am waiting for more ideas, coments etc from you guys. Lets keep up the good work that we did here.

Though I do agree with you in keeping it simple and easy to use. I still believe there should be some thought associated with invading a planet, learning what the planet is currently weak against and exploiting it.



At the moment the system you describe is Big number X vs Big Number Y and alot of pretty explosions as you grind them together. Though it's an improvement on the current visual representation of a circular bar around a planet, I personally prefer a more thorough upgrade to the invasion system. Am I actually expecting it to happen? Not so much.



But atleast adding the equivalent of Kinetcs/lasers/missiles to the invasion modules add some sense of tactics and strategy.

I absolutely hate the fact that you can snipe an entire system with a few scouts and the entire population on the planet basically roll over and die, so I fully support this idea. Also, I completely agree - the ground combat from MOO3 was fantastic, especially the radio-reports. I reckon, however, that it needs to be drastically streamlined for it to have a shot at being incorporated into the game.



Couple of suggestions:



- Scrap the events. Ground combat shouldn't be as detailed as space combat, it needs to be simpler and cleaner. If combat in space doesn't have it then the odds are pretty decent that it shouldn't be in ground combat either.

- Replace the battle map with a 2-D system map (or use the existing 3-D one if it's easier). Have the 'regions' as planets and simply show a slow progression of colour change from the enemy faction colour to your own. Explosions would be nice but not necessary. I suspect what would happen if you broke it down into regions on planets that the entire thing would simply take too long.

- Keep the cards limited but varied. I reckon 3 attack options, 3 defence options (think attack, subvert, feint) and 4 unlocks (2 attack, 2 defence - think orbital bombardment, large-scale chemical/biological) should be more than enough.

- Don't mess around with planes, tanks, infantry, mechs etc. Just toss in a large 'invasion' module like others have suggested (don't muck around with different types unless you're talking 'big' and 'bigger') and keep it simple. Remember that the AI has to be able to use the system as well so the simpler the better.

- Have a 'blow target population up', similar to the raze system mechanic they asked if we wanted on G2G not too long back, that bypasses ground combat and simply destroys everything.



Definitely, definitely include radio-transmissions from the front line.



Remember that you're effectively asking for a whole new combat system to be introduced which is both unlikely to be feasible, except potentially as DLC/expansion, and also largely unnecessary. So simple, adding character and gameplay are the key things to keep in mind.

Maybe the variety and complexity of this solution is a bit overwhelming but the main point is great. Try to make it a bit simplier and you've got a medal m8

nice done very well described idea. In my opinion i miss what dagemi wrote. Some defences on the moons or satelites as first part of defense would be nice. this could be working as space ship battles and then next part of battle would be ground battle.

Idea is very well thought out and very detailed!

would love to see something like this implemented, but maybe not as in-depth?

That's a hell of an idea What do you guys think about planetary def systems like satellites or maybe death star module to improve even more this combat system? Some satellites would be nice...

So solution would be add some dedicated modules with decent tonage that invasion from scout ships in first turns wont be real.

Second thing shouldn't be just 1 ship with troops that can make a deal. I think it should be meaby fleet or meaby just a bit more than 1 ship.

It would be silly if 1 transport ship could conquere whole system.



About new typ of ship i dont think so (woudl be nice to get new grafic like star craft droop ships and so on ) but we could use ships that game is ofering now.

This ships would have modules to suport life etc etc rather than beam lasers or misiles to atack but adding flack deflectors and shield would be nice.

Hey guys.



I would start with this. Game is very good but what I miss in it is ground atacks.

By this I mean when you do blocade with yours ships on planet we see slow progresing around the planet line that is changeing color. When it change from for example red to blue player blue gets the planet. Now my sugestion is to add posibility to fight with ground forces on the planet. The idea of it is inspired/copy? :> from MOO3.

With curent battle system paper scisors and rock ( this battle cards) its should be easy.

I will try in next line describe how should it work. Ofc its open idea and better or upgrade ideas of this first would be even more than welcome.

But lets go to conclusion.



---When you win space battle and you blocade a planet you can start invasion on planet. (choice from manual atack or auto atack)

---When you click on invasion opction you will see window with planet and options " how to atack"

---(for example decoy atack, flank atack, front atack, atack from orbit, positional fighting, slow atack, fast atack(dont look on military casualties) etc etc the posibilites are endless

--- planetary fight should take more than 1 turn ( if player or AI dont poses huge amount of forces etc like in space battle --- space ship power.

--- in planetary fight player would be able to chose 3 cards like in space combat -- for example altirery atack +20% to infrastructure lose 10% organization for military lose / all cards would have their counter cards -->deep fortification +25% to recovery and 5% to suprise attack.

--- when players and AI would chose their cards ground fight starts. The battle system would be identical to this in space combat.

--- player would see planet splited to regions with borders or cartography planet with lines streight and up crossing each other. Like in atlas map is or in any other map

--- as the fight progress player would see regions geting from red (AI) to blue (player) or blue to red (colors depends ofc on color nations that we chose on start of the game)

--- during this regions fight player would hear informations from the battlefield from ground comander. (for example to this altiery atack " they are suprised we destroy their defense lines" or " they were preapered atack dont succesed." other option is to see this information in chat mesage.

--- after fight player would see region swaped blue and red color status and some planet destroy grafic efects like shell holes after altirery atack etc. and some of this efects during combat ofc ;]

--- when all regions are in 1 color planet is conquered. /there is posibility if ground atack dont succesed atacing forces are pushed back to space ships and only blocade is active event on this planet system.





Posible cards



Front Attack vs Entrench - entrenched troops have the advantage

Flank Attack vs Entrench - entrenched troops are in deep troubles

Orbital vs Entrench - Entrench and orbital barrage both succed (idea by Krantz86)



Attacker Events:

- Pillage building: +X FIDS based on highest cost building OR -10% invasion speed for 3 turns.

- Scorched Earth: +20% invasion speed OR +10% system ownership at end of invasion (success only).

- Biological Weapons: +25% invasion speed and - diplomacy with all races OR -10% invasion speed on this planet and + diplomacy with other races.



Defender Events:

- Sabotage: Destroy most expensive building to set invasion back X OR +10% enemy invasion speed.

- Patricians: Lose 1 population and set invasion back X OR +15% enemy invasion speed.

- Subversion: Increase enemy invasion speed by 30% and decrease enemy ownership growth by 20% OR reduce enemy invasion speed by 5%.

(idea by Deathdealer)



Attacker:

Tactics: Charge! -% enemy interception of Infantry -% Damage from Tanks (Counters Engineering)

Engineering: Smokescreen -% enemy interception of Mid -% Damage from Planes (Counters Sabotage)

Sabotage: Commandos -% enemy interception of Air -% Damage from Infantry (Counters Defense)

Defense: Evasive Manuevers -% enemy interception of ALL and -% Accuracy (Counters Offense)

Offense: Stay on Target! +% enemy interception of ALL and +% Accuracy (Counters Tactics)



Defender:

Tactics: Snipers +% interception of Infantry +% Damage from Tanks (Counters Engineering)

Engineering: EMP Mines +% interception of Mid +% Damage from Planes (Counters Sabotage)

Sabotage: Blackout +% interception of Air +% Damage from Infantry (Counters Defense)

Defense: Get Down -% interception of ALL and -% Enemy Accuracy (Counters Offense)

Offense: Death or Glory +% interception of ALL and +% Enemy Accuracy (Counters Tactics)

(idea by Yzaxtol)



Alternative solutions



- Scrap the events. Ground combat shouldn't be as detailed as space combat, it needs to be simpler and cleaner. If combat in space doesn't have it then the odds are pretty decent that it shouldn't be in ground combat either.

- Replace the battle map with a 2-D system map (or use the existing 3-D one if it's easier). Have the 'regions' as planets and simply show a slow progression of colour change from the enemy faction colour to your own. Explosions would be nice but not necessary. I suspect what would happen if you broke it down into regions on planets that the entire thing would simply take too long.

- Keep the cards limited but varied. I reckon 3 attack options, 3 defence options (think attack, subvert, feint) and 4 unlocks (2 attack, 2 defence - think orbital bombardment, large-scale chemical/biological) should be more than enough.

- Don't mess around with planes, tanks, infantry, mechs etc. Just toss in a large 'invasion' module like others have suggested (don't muck around with different types unless you're talking 'big' and 'bigger') and keep it simple. Remember that the AI has to be able to use the system as well so the simpler the better.

- Have a 'blow target population up', similar to the raze system mechanic they asked if we wanted on G2G not too long back, that bypasses ground combat and simply destroys everything.

(Idea by Veneke)



Definitely, definitely include radio-transmissions from the front line.





how it change game in my opinion ?



- game would be more interesitng and have more deep in game connection.

- hearing ground comander reporting how fight is progresing was best part in my experience in Moo3

- pushing option DESTROY FROM ORBIT was so fun button.



Changes



- in reasearch tree should be added cards for ground combat as space combat cards are added.

- new unite marines , mechs, tanks air planes for each civ.

- some new grafic for planets. It should not be hard because game already have grafic for planets just add to it some explosions effects

- ground combat only per 3 turns (deathdealer) or 1 planet per system (governor planet)



revard if planet is conquered.



--some revards would be nice like idd geting some tech from oponents but meaby only from planets where you are focused on science ?

--from planets focused on industry you would get some ships ? free building ?

--from gold focused planets meaby some dust bonus. (BIS_mar)



What is dont needed.



-- i am not sure if all planets should be conquered by this metthod. For example for each system player is selecting governor planet. If this planet is conquered all system is conquered.

-- there is no need for new space ship (like drop ship) there is already in game option for melee power of ship. This power would be space/tonage for ground forces.





Rules



- unites would be produced like space ships are.

- transporters - as optional unit as holder for ground units.

- ready units would be in baracks / like ready ships in hangar. --> waiting for deploy.

- fight system like scisor paper rock marines < tanks < mechs > marines ( developers and you guys would know best how to do it. )



Keep old 'Siege Bloackade' system.

Invasions remove MP from the defending system

Invasion Combat is purely Offense vs Defense.

Change Invasion Modules into 3 types: Melee,Mid,Long.

Will require new Combat Cards

Possible to Copy+Rename Combat cards for Offense/Defense.

(Yzaxtol)





to conclude.

I dont know if i can do this so sorry if i did something wrong but this link from you tube describe what i am thinking about.

part from 1:43 to 2:00 (I DONT OWN ANY PART OF THIS MOVIE. MOVIE IS NOT MY AND POSTED BY DANELLEYA) Its only movie that have this idea showed in it.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNJFRvn-YNg





best regards

Rafiozo



ps waiting for constructive disciusion

ps2 thread is geting bigger because i update ideas to this first post.

In my opinion you need the transports (or ships that are carrying Invasion modules) to lead an invasion. The ships in Starwars sacrifice quite alot of tonnage to house ground assault regiments instead of dedicating all of their space for Pew Pew space combat.

Awesome idea but just out of curiosity would soldiers and tanks be transported via new ship type?

The GalCiv method was highly dependent on three points, soldiering, technology and numbers.



However there was usually quite a bias towards soldiering making the warlike races that specialized in it totally OP.





But 2 things, we already have transport ships (Used for colony ships) and the reason you don't need invasion modules for invading is that ships land on the planets for you, they all are invasion transports (Think star wars in the clone wars).



This keeps up the games progression without some kine of bull regarding having transports!

Upadated



Ye in my opinion keeping old siege blocake is very importat.

Sometime you jsut want to block trade for planet not just conquere it.

So removing blockade would be not good.



Idea with melee, mid range and long is nice do adapt.

I think it would just start from long range to melee because troops first fire from far and when they are close swords etc go to work too



bombing from orbit i think its esential and should be added too. As card could work but to be honest i would miss I WIN BUTTON

"destroy the planet" "

Ok, my thoughts on Ground Assault



The old system should still be there, but slowed down as a cheaper and safer alternative as a kind of blockade/siege where the planet will surrender given enough time, prolonged by the defenses + provisions of the planet. (Possible Extra: huge malus to defense if population is starving) the Invasion of planets in my opinion should just add to the blockade section of the original invasion as a planet will not be able to destroy the ships in orbit and it's just either a delaying tactic or a chance to steam-roller through some poor people. It would be possible that if you invade a system and they are constantly defeating your pathetic invasion armies that it would take longer because they're winning too many battles to keep their morale up.



When you make a ground assault against someone it's because you want to finish this alot sooner then normal (and Big Explosions) so I believe the main focus on the Invading army is to remove the system's ability defend itself by removing pieces of it's MP it gained from Population and Defense improvements. The more MP removed in the invasion the less time the blockade will require to pacify the system. If you remove all of it? GG



The ships you have in Orbit are essentially going to be busy bombarding the military bases of the planet, there is potential to have a tactic card that uses the fleet during the battle but it shouldn't be represented in each ground assault.



As the military power for the agressor is defined by Invasion modules of the ships you build (other people have added the idea of making Transport ships that could have -40% tonnage cost for Invasion modules), to make the ground assault make sense in a sort of Mirror of the space combat the Invasion modules could be seperated into types:



+ Melee

+ Mid-Range

+ Long Range



For the Defending Planets there should be a 3-way slider that the empire/planet follow incase of an invasion (can't be changed during an invasion) this would also have 3 defense types, each one dedicated to resisting one of the invasion types. It would also prevent having to create alot of seperate kinds of defense improvements.



In this system, the invaders are the Lasers,Kinetics and Missiles where as the Planet are using nothing but Deflectors,Shields and Flak. Obviously it'd look much better if the 'Missiles' are planes that get shot down, and the kinetics that bounce off of the 'trenches' are grunts getting shot.



There is a good case for and against having Invasion modules 1-off like the colonisation modules, however it would just boil down to the effectiveness of the armies. Shall they be very powerful and expensive to cut down on Battle time between turns, or more a constant but weaker force wearing the enemy down?



This does have the problem that new modules will both make the invasion section of the ship builder much longer and there would be need for alot more space in the military tech tree (though possibly using some of the research points with single weapons)



A valid point was made that there should be some bonus to an invasion modules power from researching better weapons automatically



This set-up does mean that their should be different tactic cards for defender and invaders or atleast renamed cards that are similar.



An Example from hideously stealing from the space starting cards:



Ok I'm going to call the Melee -> Infantry, Mid -> Tanks and Long -> Planes



Attacker:

Tactics: Charge! -% enemy interception of Infantry -% Damage from Tanks (Counters Engineering)

Engineering: Smokescreen -% enemy interception of Mid -% Damage from Planes (Counters Sabotage)

Sabotage: Commandos -% enemy interception of Air -% Damage from Infantry (Counters Defense)

Defense: Evasive Manuevers -% enemy interception of ALL and -% Accuracy (Counters Offense)

Offense: Stay on Target! +% enemy interception of ALL and +% Accuracy (Counters Tactics)



Defender:

Tactics: Snipers +% interception of Infantry +% Damage from Tanks (Counters Engineering)

Engineering: EMP Mines +% interception of Mid +% Damage from Planes (Counters Sabotage)

Sabotage: Blackout +% interception of Air +% Damage from Infantry (Counters Defense)

Defense: Get Down -% interception of ALL and -% Enemy Accuracy (Counters Offense)

Offense: Death or Glory +% interception of ALL and +% Enemy Accuracy (Counters Tactics)



So in summary:

Keep old 'Siege Bloackade' system.

Invasions remove MP from the defending system

Invasion Combat is purely Offense vs Defense.

Change Invasion Modules into 3 types: Melee,Mid,Long.

Will require new Combat Cards

Possible to Copy+Rename Combat cards for Offense/Defense.

Updated and waiting for more



remember to vote too if we want to achiv something !! ;]