Copperwire1632 wrote:
I've been messing with "tar baby" ships; I only build defenses and drop them on large AI stacks. While you don't gain experience as quickly as battles you win, if you live 30+ battles a turn adds up real fast.

are you doing auto battles then?

Sovereign wrote:
(about -/+ 5000 HP with some little rocket defense)

5,000 HP? That's over 150 Reactive Hulls or over 1,000 weight at no HP bonuses. Even if you reduce the required weight to ~375 with +100% HP bonuses (unlikely in early-mid game) and cruisers that's still not possible at that stage of the game, especially if you want any weapons.



And I already updated the wiki page with new beam damages.

mhhh nope i checked it out with an savegame currently

i can achieve 5016 HP on Cruiser with 40 UE-reactive Hulls (strong alloys indeed (2/2) and optimal Structure (2/2) and of course the one advanced Container(but everybody use them anyways) dont know exactly how the +10 Experience of UE comes here into the formula. And there is also enough space for repairing tool and 3+ Defenses (i use anti missle cause they are big thread to High HP ships) and about 5+ Laser Modules.



For the Science...with Trade (with no Spacecadets) i achieve the tech for Cruisers/reactive Hulls/advanced containers about round 45-55-60 (depends on planetary luck) at normal game speed (playing most time 6 or 8 Player Partys for enough Trade)

I don't see how the math works out. 40 Reactive Hulls on a Cruiser makes 1,880 base HP, and Strong Alloys plus level 3 experience (if you built it on a system with Hardened Framing) is only +50%, for 2,820 HP total.



And you don't have any trouble damaging defense-based designs with only 5 lasers?

Mhh nope approx 5 lasers are okay cause 75% of Players are using destroyers anyway (but not everybody can spawn they like the hissho or cravers) and witch addionaly tech on the right hand site tech tree u can increase the space for weapons the longer the game last. And of course the enemy get stronger but with combining with higher tech Armor (i dont even speak about lensings u can achieve Crusiers about 6500 HP)



(sometimes a little more lasers with only 4000-4500 HP are also possible) and some mixed fleets works fine too(with some Destroyers) also helps the Cruisers are Damage Eaters in the First Way.



PS: do you consider that UE reactivs each gives + 2% of max Hull?

And Cruisers get an non military Modul Disscount?

Ah, I forgot about the special UE armor modules. I'll write that in.



I agree that you should go all defense or all HP.

^^ Yep



But maybe your right...if someone doesnt go realy realy on High HP ships strong alloys is not that good.

But my opinion is that High HP is and all or Nothing thing...in my experiences Hybrids are always worser then Only Weapons/Defense/HP Ships.



Maybe u try this one day out it is fun to have no worries about scouting enemy weapons and researching anti defenses

i like straightness ; )





AND not to forget there are many Buildings who Provide High HP...one Example XP Buildings and the Building where Ships Starts with 25% more HP and maybe even more (i often just build these two)

Cruisers up to 10.000 HP !!! are possible ; )

Thank you for the tread and discussion.



May I ask for some clarification? Is Strong Alloys an additive (ie 40% + 30%= 70%) effect on other ship armor % bonuses or is it a separate multiple (ie (100 x 1.4) x 1.3)?



In addition: Do you think armor tanks are viable without playing UE and/or the traits?

It's additive with armor modules and ship XP HP bonuses. Improvement bonuses (e.g. Uniform Shielding), however, are technically a different bonus and thus stack multiplicatively.



If you're going armor tanking, I think the two things are very important since you're looking at about a doubling of HP from the earlier +% HP module and the trait. Not only does it increase your attritional survivability, but since Intelligent Tools and Nano-Repair Tools repair a percentage of ship HP, you're also doubling the number of HPs repaired per phase.



Honestly I don't play MP, though, and the dynamics are certainly different than SP--if you get into an attrition situation against the Endless AI you're screwed, but the AI designs are so bad that a defense-based omni-tank can hold off any number of even Endless AI fleets, which is not true for armor tanks which will get worn away eventually. At least before the latest patch; I'm not sure if the new defense and retrofit behavior makes AI fleets enough of a threat. Whereas in MP you're going to be facing fewer but much higher quality fleets, in which case losses may be unavoidable, making armor tanks look more attractive. Unfortunately, it's hard to tell with pure math, since in MP you have to account for player choices, intelligent weapon vs. defense matching, and so forth.

very interesting tips about cruisers.... learn something new daily

It seems to me that any sufficiently experienced ship would make a functional armor tank - regardless of other factors.

I'm not sure how much effect levels will have--HP bonuses from level don't significantly outpace damage bonuses from level until level 6, which is 100 XP; this seems rather difficult to achieve if there is any attrition going on.

I've been messing with "tar baby" ships; I only build defenses and drop them on large AI stacks. While you don't gain experience as quickly as battles you win, if you live 30+ battles a turn adds up real fast.

in MP Dreadnoughts is no realistic Option.....in most cases at this stage of game it is allready over and someone is cleary at the Top of ranking

u have to think with Cruisers and maybe also only with reactiv hulls.



I have made some very good experiences with Cruisers if u build your first ones about round 50 or even before(about -/+ 5000 HP with maybe little rocket defense) they are beasts unless my neighbour is an already 80% FIDS Boni Hissho/and or a good Craver player the cruisers surviving rate was very high and their kills per death rate in industrie points was also quite good.



And Since the Patch beam damage is lesser then before isent it?

Shivetya wrote:
are you doing auto battles then?

Yes - in a a way that has enough characters to post.

I'm curious about your low sowers rating... especially your comments that you aren't even sure if its a net bonus at all.



It seems to me that the ability to basically ignore food techs and buildings in favor of increasing industry as rapidly as possible in the early game does make this a net bonus.

E.g., n-way fusion plant adds 4 food.

Your civil engineer adds 6 food.

Industry exploitation (and a bit of early game research) adds not only 3-4 industry per pop (with a bit of research), but .5-1 food (depending on early game research, and planet). The food exploitation adds 1-2 depending on the planet type (with some research). On appropriate planets you'd still do food.



If you quickly research more industrial enhancements, you can get some very good industry going, along with decent growth. Is it top notch growth? No it isn't. But to get top notch growth you have to focus a LOT more on food. You can come pretty close to top notch growth, and end up with top notch industry.



I think this lends itself to both fast expansion and an aggressive early game.

You can quickly get set up spewing out colony ships with enough food from the industry to support the constant production.

In new systems, a few turns with the civil engineer will have population blooming up around you. Adding n-way fusion and the industry exploitation will help pick up population growth after that. And nothing is preventing you from using that outstanding industry to build a few food improvements either--just cause they are at -50% doesn't mean they are useless. You can build them rapidly and move on.





EDIT: I'm not saying they are top tier. I'm just saying I don't think they are horrible.

The problem is that "decent growth" often isn't enough when it comes to custom factions. You want "balls-to-the-wall" growth, and Sowers take a hard hit in this area:

• You get -50% Food, but only 40% of Industry gets converted.
• You can't take Food traits to speed up growth effectively.
• Industry traits don't speed up growth either, since they decrease the costs of construction rather than increasing Industry.
  
  

Being able to focus constructions does help, but not enough IMO.

To be fair, growth become exponential, so I find that sowers doesn't fall too far behind in population mid game. In fact, most games I remain 1st in fids with sowers, granted this all depends on the skill level of players. Now while it is true that you do lose out on food, Sowers just need to specalize in production. You've got Heavy Isotopes which adds +10, Linked Systems which gives +20%, colonial rights which gives +25% on estactic, predictive logistsics which gives +2 production per population, and so on. Of course, you could argue that you still get better population growth with other factions.



This is true, however one advantage I find with sowers is flexability. Because you focus purely on production, you can easily pump out ships, convert to dust, convert to science while still maintaing growth. For me, this flexability is one reason why sowers is a favourite.



Also, I consider Fragile hulls basically free points. Typically, it's not your hull strength that gets your ships killed, it's not having enough defense mods. At least, in my experience.

Sowers are in a growth disadvantage during twom stages of the game: Very early game and late game.



The very early game penalty can easily be bypassed after a few turns:

(1) Set all planets to industrial exploitation.

(2) Build Isotop Refineries asap - you receive a substantial growth bonus combined with excellent colony productivity at low cost.

(3) Research Transportation Networks once you have your tier 1 research done. With ITN your sower trait will give you a net benefit for the early and mid game.

(4) Colonize high industry planets when you have the chance - gas giants with +10 prod make EXCELLENT starting points for colonizing a system. Lava and desert are also great, sometimes better than other planets if they have ressources on them.

(5) Sowers benefit MORE from ecstatic happiness: The production bonus will usually outweight the raw food income (before the sower trait), so the increase from happniess is substantial. In addition, the Elegant Shopping Networks have a an additional Sower-Specific boost for production.

(6) If you want a good start you should pick the "Mineral Rich" anomaly for your home planet. This boosts early game production and growth significantly, allowing you to pump out colony ships like not tomorrow.



If you consequently start with Isotop Refinery -> Exploitation -> Transport Network buildorders in new systems, your planets will grow quickly and faster than most other races. In fact sowers don't need any food traits to be competetive.

The only time when the Sower trait becomes a disadvantage again is the late game once you unlock the last two food techs - but it doesn't really matter, you can achieve "1-turn-growth" even with the penalty.



Another very important point for Sower growth is the fact that you can use Soil Revification to turn all bad planets into desert. This should provide a substantial happiness boost that either grants you the extatic benefits or allows you to increase tax rate. In addition, desert planets have high industry values, so they are (again) good for production AND growth. The Tundra transformation tech is also much lower in the tree (1.800 vs 14.000 science!), if you manage to get hold of adamantit early (trading or beelining for it), you can quickly transform your deserts into tundra planets. This will provide additional happiness, great science benfits and has a great synergy with another unique improvement from the Sowers: Extreme Infrastructure. This exclusive improvement grants bonus industry for all low-industry planets, turning each and every system into a productive and well-growing part of your empire. It also boosts ocean planets during the later game, making a mix of ocean + 1-2 jungle systems viable as final terraforming attempts.





tl,dr:

The Sower trait is actually a bonus for growth and allows to create extremly productive worlds that growth at high speed. Exception are the first few turns until you get N-Way-Fusion plants. The late game disadvantage is irrevelant since 1-turn growth is still possible. Sowers do not need any growth related traits to be competetive.

Blockade Busters with Amoeba Affinity means instant good trade routes when you meet other players since you already know where all their planets are. This also works for others racial affinities if ally ally with an Amoeba, because the alliance lets you know where all the planets are that you ally knows about.



IIRC taking Eternal War prevents trade routes even if you have Blockade Busters.