Sry my english isent that good....u sai....in late game HP Modifiers will be swamped...does that mean strong alloys good thing cumulativ worth it ; ) ...or Strong alloys bad thing not worth it: (

I never thought of half of these tricks, thanks for the help!

Sovereign wrote:
Sry my english isent that good....u sai....in late game HP Modifiers will be swamped...does that mean strong alloys good thing cumulativ worth it ; ) ...or Strong alloys bad thing not worth it: (

I'm basically saying that if you want late-game HP it would be much better to e.g. take Optimal Structure and put in more armor modules. A single late-game armor module often has an effect as strong as a level of this trait.

Just my 2 cents Evil4Zerggin, but... when comparing Amoeba trade faction to Sophon science faction,

a) the whole map view (allowing you to pick and choose optimal systems to settle from the start)

b) The trade Amoeba's bonus in dust



Continues to make the Amoeba trade faction superior to the Sophon pure science faction. In particular, I find that Sophons really do struggle to keep their tax at <30% due to dust income issue in the earlier (more critical) stages of the game. Once sufficient science research has been done on the left branch of the tech tree, this is no longer an issue, but early game is really the most critical stage in the game.



That said, you cannot afford to take space cadets anymore with the trade focus:

the magnetic field generators buildings which provide 40 science/system is absolutely critical, and taking a 30% hit on that science income would really crush your overall science production.





Thus, I'm firmly of the opinion that

Amoeba: blockade runner + merchant I + diplomacy I = 15+8+6 = 29 is superior to

Sophon: +30% science boost = 30 points.

i also have to refuse you now in one point:

after some math tests i come to the con that the formel for Ship HP is =



(Base HP + Modul Boni)*(Trait Percentual Boni + Modul Percentual Boni)



Maybe the Strong Alloy trait isent that bad if u wanna achiev only HP ships which are worth it



With Defensive Lensing (percentual Bonus of 11% each) u would have to install at least 4 lensings to compensate the Strong Alloys Trait (or even much more cause of this formula)

A Lensing got a tonnage of 25...4x25 sooo with Strong Alloys (2/2) you save a minimum of about 100 Tonnage Points for Weapons or other Modules... my opinion is if u wanna go high HP ships u need more then only Optimal Structure

Efyian wrote:
Just my 2 cents Evil4Zerggin, but... when comparing Amoeba trade faction to Sophon science faction,

a) the whole map view (allowing you to pick and choose optimal systems to settle from the start)

b) The trade Amoeba's bonus in dust



Continues to make the Amoeba trade faction superior to the Sophon pure science faction. In particular, I find that Sophons really do struggle to keep their tax at <30% due to dust income issue in the earlier (more critical) stages of the game. Once sufficient science research has been done on the left branch of the tech tree, this is no longer an issue, but early game is really the most critical stage in the game.



That said, you cannot afford to take space cadets anymore with the trade focus:

the magnetic field generators buildings which provide 40 science/system is absolutely critical, and taking a 30% hit on that science income would really crush your overall science production.





Thus, I'm firmly of the opinion that

Amoeba: blockade runner + merchant I + diplomacy I = 15+8+6 = 29 is superior to

Sophon: +30% science boost = 30 points.

I haven't played the newest patch seriously yet, but this sounds reasonable. All I was trying to say is that the trade advantage is less than it used to be.

Sovereign wrote:
i also have to refuse you now in one point:

after some math tests i come to the con that the formel for Ship HP is = (Base HP + Modul Boni)*(Trait Percentual Boni * Modul Percentual Boni)

Maybe the Strong Alloy trait isent that bad if u wanna achiev only HP ships which are worth it



With Defensive Lensing (percentual Bonus of 11% each) u would have to install at least 4 lensings to compensate the Strong Alloys Trait (or even much more cause of this formula)

A Lensing got a tonnage of 25...4x25 sooo with Strong Alloys (2/2) you save a minimum of about 100 Tonnage Points for Weapons or other Modules... my opinion is if u wanna go high HP ships u need more then only Optimal Structure

Defensive Lensing also gives a pretty huge base HP bonus, though, so the formula means less than four Defensive Lensings are equal to Strong Alloys 2--I'd say less than two Defensive Lensings.

Formula was little false... secound multiple is of course and plus... (Base HP + Boni HP )*(Trait % Boni +Modul % Boni)



the Huge Base HP Bonus also would Provide from the 40% From the Trait. Thats was my point the great thing is that the % Bonus from the Trait doesnt count for the 600 Base(cruiser) as someone should maybe thought. It Counts on the Summ of all other Armor Applications too.



In Other Words the Strong Alloys make every Armor Modul even MORE(too many maths to be exactly) effectiv as 40%



Of Course you can achieve same acceptable Stats for Only HP Ships without it but you throw many Tonnage Points throw the Window.

I am not a fanboy of Strong Alloys Trait(20 Points is much) but for a United Empire Build with only armor Ships i cant imagine someone can compare with *normal* Fleets without the 40% Bonus. Your Ships need Weapons aswell and with for example 3000HP Cruisers u will be oudated by strong beam technology soon and you wil be forced to build 6000HP+[withreactivhulls] ships to survive the fire.



And addtionally in MP the defensiv Lensis is unfortunately an highend tech





PS: To the Space Cadets i say...why not? in the stage where u build generator Buildings u should have a plenty of Trade Routes

And u also gain approx 28 points left from the Science Reactors...sounds not so critical to me

The Question is more...is maybe a pick of Diplomats I ...and Merchants I...without Spacecadets 3...superior..to Diplomats II and Merchants II with Spacecadets 3 ? (in terms of Science Points)

Let's have some math then.



An endgame Dreadnought with no traits has 900 weight with the tonnage module. Since HP increases superlinearly with the number of modules, you're going to want to devote most of the tonnage to it--say, for a round number, 500 for 20 such modules. That gives you 1,200 + 220 * 20 = 5,600 base HP, and a percentage modifier of +220%, for 17,920 net HP.



Strong Alloys 2 will give you 40% of 5,600 more HP, or 2,240 additional HP.



Two more Defensive Lensings will increase the base HP to 6,040, and the percentage to +242%, for 20,656.8 net HP, which is an increase of 2736.8 HP--that's more than Strong Alloys 2. This has a weight of 50. The base weight of the Dreadnought is 450 with the tonnage module, so one level of Optimal Structure will give you 67.5 more weight--you'll have some weight left over even with two additional armor modules.



It is true that this is endgame. However, I would argue that HP-based ships overall are not viable at all before this, because weapon damage is so high that you don't stand a chance of surviving based on HP until you have Dreadnoughts and +% HP modules. Even late game, it's going to depend heavily on the situation whether HP-based is going to work--for example, 20 Gluon Disruptors will deal 15,800 base damage per phase, which is unlikely to be able to be repaired away. Sure, there is accuracy to worry about, but at endgame there's some pretty hefty bonuses to damage. Ships do get HP from improvements, and more HP than damage from XP, but on the other hand Heroes give mostly damage bonuses.

Evil4Zerggin wrote:
I'm basically saying that if you want late-game HP it would be much better to e.g. take Optimal Structure and put in more armor modules. A single late-game armor module often has an effect as strong as a level of this trait.

However if you are playing MP and don't want the game to drag out then this is a great trait. I figure it this way, if I can't win before those items come online I screwed up.