davea wrote:
This is a very interesting observation. I did not quite understand the middle part. But here is a question: currently my build order for every system is , heavy isotopes, and xenotourism. Is xenotourism worth it for small systems? I tend to keep my tax rate as low as possible, like 10%, so that my dust balance stays barely positive.

Short answer: Nope.

Long answer: at the -3 Dust upkeep it requires and a low tax level of 10%, you would need at least (3/.2) 15 population on the planet type that it boosts to break even.

I have a complete table of Tax and Approval modifiers on the wiki: http://endlessspace.wikia.com/wiki/Approval



Considering the powerful effect Approval has on Food, Industry, and Science, maybe it is often better to keep taxes low, and use Ind-Dust conversion instead of Taxes to fund your empire? Although with enough Happiness bonuses you could probably support a decent tax rate even at 100% approval (except for newly annexed systems).

xenotourism = -3 I believe

Good stuff, didn't notice that before.

Very very interesting. This thread should be kept somewhere for all the players who need an explanation.



@ davea : With the calculs above, and if I take 0.2 as a multiplier for 10% tax rate. If I remember correctly xenotourism has an upkeep of 2 Dust, You need 11 pop in a system to gain dust ?

This is a very interesting observation. I did not quite understand the middle part. But here is a question: currently my build order for every system is , heavy isotopes, and xenotourism. Is xenotourism worth it for small systems? I tend to keep my tax rate as low as possible, like 10%, so that my dust balance stays barely positive.

Very good explanation. I've never thought much about how the Dust production works, but here it seems I should. Dammit, no more random Dust improvements simply because they are there...

Very helpful!

chef_brian wrote:
Bumping so this gets seen. It's a pretty big problem and it makes much more sense that the upgrades should have a constant figure unaffected by tax.

so.... from a system under ghost73's proposed tax reforms it should be



(dust generated - upkeep) = X

x +(x*(tax rate)) = revenue

Correct?



Example -

Dust generated = 100

Upkeep = 60

Tax rate = 20%

(100-60) = 40



40+(40*.2) = 48

Income = 48

Quite simple, but not very realistic.



What you propose is as if the empire generate the structure profits AND receive the tax (40+40*0.2).

That's creating money from nothing. Taxes never generate money, work does.

The tax is supposed to come from the structure income (40-40*0.2 for the producer, 40*0.2 for the taxer). You can't get both.



But I agree that it would be much simpler like that. There must be a compromise...

Bumping so this gets seen. It's a pretty big problem and it makes much more sense that the upgrades should have a constant figure unaffected by tax.

so.... from a system under ghost73's proposed tax reforms it should be



(dust generated - upkeep) = X

x +(x*(tax rate)) = revenue

Correct?



Example -

Dust generated = 100

Upkeep = 60

Tax rate = 20%

(100-60) = 40



40+(40*.2) = 48

Income = 48

companies get taxed on profits, not on revenues.

Photon_Ventdesdunes wrote:
In your example also, the upkeep is being reduced with the tax rate. It is not realistic. When you need to take care about something, it will not change because suddenly you don't ask tax anymore.

Well, the idea is the upkeep will remain the same, it is just paid for by the system if it is producing more dust than upkeep, otherwise the dust balance is negative and the empire has to pay for the deficit in the system.

amount the empire receives from a system (if positive) = (dust produced - upkeep) x tax rate

amount empire pays to support system (if negative) = (dust produced - upkeep)

OthobRithol wrote:
Clearly you've exposed a rather sizable flaw in the current implementation. Perhaps it would be far better for them to use a more realistic approach and just tax any gain.



(Sources of Income - Costs) x ( 100% - Tax Rate)



Just like the real world.

In your example also, the upkeep is being reduced with the tax rate. It is not realistic. When you need to take care about something, it will not change because suddenly you don't ask tax anymore.

Clearly you've exposed a rather sizable flaw in the current implementation. Perhaps it would be far better for them to use a more realistic approach and just tax any gain.



(Sources of Income - Costs) x ( 100% - Tax Rate)



Just like the real world.

How about simply calling it "Workload" instead of "Tax" and having the percentages range from 0-150. Makes a lot more sense that way.

thanks for clearing that up. +1

So, basically, if you have a low tax rate, don't bother with the Dust Upgrades?



And, is their any real benefit to high tax rates besides Dust? Cause, so far, it seems to bring many penalties with it.

VieuxChat wrote:
Do anyone think that isn't a good thing ?

Taxes should be applied to the overall gain, not revenue as it's easier to tracks and doesn't create counterintuitive situations where a dust improvement will drag dust instead of getting some.

After further thought, the current tax system sort of make sense.

This would result in 0 upkeep at 0% tax because:

- right now it is: gain * 0 - cost = -cost

- if tax on overall gain: (gain - cost) * 0 = 0 upkeep for planets



I believe 0.30.3(?), had the +dust system improvements not affected by dust, and by turn 100, you can get +10k dust per turn; of course to solve this reducing dust income per pop (something like +0.2 dust/pop), and leave this income unaffected by dust.

Photon_Ventdesdunes wrote:
You need 16 people on planets type I and II (don't forget that also) in the system to start gain dust. In this case the gain will be : +0.2 dust.

Yep, you are right. I was just thinking 1 isolated system like Sol(where Earth is). If you had more than one system then the fraction dust income does add up--overall, still negligible.

Photon_Ventdesdunes wrote:
The thing are the people in xenotourism, the moons in careful sweeping...



With 10% tax rate (multiplier 0.2) and careful sweeping (upkeep 4dust)



4/(0.2*2)= 10 moons.

So you need one more to gain dust. 11 moons to gain dust at 10% tax rate with careful sweeping... Ouch, We have 6 planets maximum

Also, at 10% tax rate, adaptive taxation requires >20 pop to get dust; though it is more flexible on the source of the pop.

In this thread I will attempt to explain the dust production mechanic in this game, which is extremely convoluted, counter-intuitive, and confusing. In short, a gigantic pain in the butt.



Taxes and Approval

First things first:

Dust is not affected by approval rating.

What this means is no matter how happy or unhappy your population is, they will not produce any more or less dust.

This is so that lowering your taxes does not increase your dust income. This makes sense.



This, however, does not:

Tax level directly affects dust production.

What this means is that your population produces more or less dust depending on your tax level. Unlike a normal tax, it does not take a percentage of what your population produces.

Think of it as a multiplier on the amount of dust your population produces.



The Tax Multiplier

The tax multiplier is applied to the total production of dust in the system before upkeep. (This is very important for later)

The tax level slider is not indicative of the tax multiplier: 50% tax is not a multiplier of 0.5

It works out something like this:

0% tax = x0.0

25% tax = x0.5

50% tax = x1.0

75% tax ~ x1.35

100% tax = x1.5



You can see below that all the positive dust production is the total production. In this picture my tax level is set to 25%, so the multiplier should be x0.5.



If you add up the gains and subtract the amount due to the tax, you get the total gains x0.5: 95 + 87.8 + 6 + 2 = 190.8 (total production before multiplier);

190.8 x 0.5 = 95.4 (total after multiplier) = 190.8 - 95.4 (value 'from tax rate' in the picture)





It might be a little clearer if I use a tax level of 35%:



At 35%, the multiplier is x0.7.



Ok, so the amount of dust a system can produce at 50% (1x multiplier = no multiplier applied) is given as the sum of dust from planets, from trade, and from any improvements that produce a set amount of dust (like planetary institute). These are represented by the dust symbols with '+' next to them. We will call this the potential production.

So in the example above, the system has a potential production of 95 + 87.8 + 6 + 2 = 190.8 Dust.



Now the tax level comes into effect. In the example above, I have it set to 35% tax, which is a dust production multiplier of 0.7. This reduces the dust this system produces to 0.7 x potential.



The value next to 'From Tax Rate' in the above picture indicates how much the tax level changes the production of dust in your system. Despite being named 'From Tax Rate' your empire doesn't get this dust, it just reduces the amount of dust the system produces.



In this case, the tax level changes my dust production by -57.2 Dust. This value is calculated by taking the 'taxed' production (multiplier x potential) and subtracting the potential. So the game gets -57.2 Dust From Tax Rate from (0.7 x 190.8) - 190.8 = -57.2.



So the production of the system after taxes is 190.8 - 57.2 = 133.6 Dust. Or calculated using the multiplier: 0.7 x 190.8 = 133.6 Dust.



Now, this amount is further reduced by the upkeep of the system. This is represented by the 'From Improvements' with a '-' next to the number.



In this case, my upkeep is -58 Dust. So I subtract the upkeep from the production of the system after taxes

133.6 - 57.2 = 75.5 Dust. You will notice that this is the same as the value next to 'Current Value'.

'Current Value' is the value that goes to your empire (before empire bonuses).



The Multiplier vs. Improvements (and how it kills them)

It can be very (extremely) bad for a player who does not understand the dust system to start building dust boosting improvements, especially at the beginning of a game when taxes are low to keep your population happy.

Let's take a look at the Careful Sweeping improvement, which gives a system +2 Dust for each explored moon at an upkeep of -4 Dust.

Most players would think they would need at least 3 moons for this improvement to have a net gain ([3x2] - 4 = 2). Wrong.

This is where the multiplier comes into play and this is what I mean when I say the tax level directly affects your dust production. Now read carefully.



At 25% tax, you get a multiplier of x0.5. So that +6 Dust you thought you were getting from the Careful Sweeping improvement on your system with 3 moons is actually +3 Dust. Now, since the multiplier comes into play before the upkeep, the improvement still costs you -4 Dust, for a net gain of -1 Dust. I'm gonna say this again: This is what I mean when I say the tax level directly affects your dust production.



At anything above 50% tax, you actually get a dust production bonus, which suddenly makes this improvement have a net positive gain in systems with just 2 or more moons. This can be very confusing because improvements are for the most part permanent, and should not have a production value based on your tax level.



So be very careful when placing dust improvements because they probably will not produce as much dust as you thought.



Hope this helps you fellow spacemen out there manage your empires.

Visit my thread to read my suggestion for simplifying the confusing dust production system here: Simplifiy Taxation System



Edit:

Here's a quote from one of my later posts outlining when (and mostly when not) to use the Xenotourism improvement:

Ghost73 wrote:
Not quite, it depends on your tax level as to how many pop are required to break even. With a tax level of 10%, the dust multiplier is x0.2, so the dust bonus that Xenotourism would provide is multiplied x0.2. Since it requires an upkeep of 3 Dust, at 10% tax you would need a minimum 15 pop to break even (3 upkeep/0.2 = 15). However, if you raise the tax level to say 25%, the bonus becomes x0.5, and then you would only need 6 pop (3 upkeep/0.5 = 6) on the correct planet type to break even with Xenotourism, which is just one reason why I think this system needs an overhaul.

Evil4Zerggin added a nice link to the ES Wiki that outlines the tax level multiplier at each possible percentage that would help when calculating the value of an improvement: http://endlessspace.wikia.com/wiki/Approval

ty very much for the thread, obviously i never understood the system until now.