Thanks a lot!



Alright makes sense now, I guess I was stuck on old assumptions. I don't like the fact that "From Tax Rate" at less then 50% represent a negative figure, it is extremely confusing. But okay.

Well, ouch. That explains why I didn't seem to be able to dig myself out of economic holes with lower tax rates and more economic structures.

I do not like this; at the very least it should come out of profit after upkeep, so that you cannot bankrupt yourself by producing money-generating improvements. That's very counter-intuitive.

thanks for the information... I have grown increasingly frustrated with each game because I was constantly running into money problems, which led to morale problems, which led to worse money problems.



The Tax system needs to be explained better with in-game tooltips, and the improvements need to have the -X on Improvement labeled as a per turn cost... I spent 2 games thinking it was a 1 time cost, only to bankrupt poor planets with too many improvements.

Great post, very helpful.

First up, great write up. While I had already realized that system improvements were excluded I did not realize it was not working on a standard 1:1 ratio. At this point the math nerd in me geeked out, and I decided to look a little deeper.



First, the most important thing that was missing from the guide. Trade income (as well as the more obvious ind>dust) is not included in the tax rate.

Now, on to our odd tax rate scale. From 0-50% it is a linear scale, each 5% tax is worth a 10% modifier, this part is fairly simple. The not so obvious part is the bit from 50-100%. In this area it does not fit a linear scale, instead entering the realm of diminishing returns. Below you will find the table for the tax rates (I included the linear portion for the sake of completeness). You can see that 95-100% provides only a negligible increase, while 50-55% is almost as valuable as the negatives. While one is rarely going to be at that high of a tax rate, it may be relevant, and is certainly an interesting design choice to split the scale like that.



Tax Rate....Modifier

0%....-100%

5%....-90%

10%....-80%

15%....-70%

20%....-60%

25%....-50%

30%....-40%

35%....-30%

40%....-20%

45%....-10%

50%....0%

55%....9%

60%....17%

65%....24%

70%....30%

75%....35%

80%....39%

85%....42%

90%....45%

95%....48%

100%....50%



EDIT: I have started a thread with my thoughts on the tax system as it is now and how it may be improved here, please go take a look at let me know what you think.

Wow...really? That needs to be changed! And if its just by getting those buildings stronger. Or even allow System taxes seperately. This system makes them absolut unimportant buildings. In most of my empires with 30+ systems there are sometimes only 2-3 systems with more than 2 or three moons. Or just give the Planets the posibility of having more then one moon. Like in real space.

Oh and great explanation Thanks

Sorry I didn't write this sooner, but I've been out of town. I wanted to respond to Ghost73 and to expand a little on my understanding/explanation.

Ghost73 wrote:
But then why would the government tax itself in the first place?



The problem with the system in place is that it is counter-intuitive and hard to understand. Since the tax works like a multiplier on dust production only and not the profit (production - upkeep) of a system, it directly affects how effective dust producing improvements are.

The government isn't "taxing itself," it is covering the operation costs for huge projects in the interest of bettering its people. Making profit isn't always the goal. If it doesn't expect its citizens to pay very much for taxes, then it may not be able to make enough of a profit to fund such projects (system improvements).



For any facility to run, a certain amount of resources need to be spent on keeping it operational. We'll use a factory as an example. It needs a power source, technicians, engineers, laborers, raw materials, a way to transport the materials to/from the facility, repairs, replacement parts, and countless other things. If the government is footing the bill for all of those things, then lowering the taxes won't change the costs for any of those components. It will mean that of what is produced, less will be taken for the government to use as profit. Again, if the government receives less income from the operation of the facility than it spends on the operation of said facility, then it will have to pay the remainder from other sources. Either way, the government assumes liability to keep it operational, and it's simply a matter of how much of the production the government gets.



(Sorry if I'm being overly repetitious.)

Ghost73 wrote:
I personally find that it does not make sense that an improvement at 40% tax that is producing a profit for the system, suddenly is producing a dust deficit at 20% tax. This is why a system would make more sense to be taxed after its upkeep.

You have to remember, the system is STILL getting profit. But the profit is for the people, and not for the government. The government is spending money on the star system improvements, which people are working on. Because of their work, they get dust as payment. But the government isn't taxing them very much, so while the citizens are making a hefty profit, the government is slowly losing money.



This is a big area of debate in real life. Should the government spend more money than it makes, trying to keep everyone happy? Or do they spend less? Do they spend the same amount, but tax more?



Ultimately, that's part of the fun of this game. You can spend time and energy one building improvements that make it so your citizens don't care whether their tax rate is high, making lots of profit eventually, or you can keep tax rates low to keep the people happy much quicker.

Ghost73 wrote:
The problem with this is that no where in the game does it tell you that 50% is 1x multiplier. When people see 50% tax, they think that the empire is taking 50% of what the system produces after upkeep, just like any other tax. However, this is not the case and thinking this way can cause players to really ruin their dust production because the taxation system is so convoluted. And players that get confused, get frustrated and stop playing. Its as simple as that.

If I remember quickly, when you slide the tax bar around, you can see the dust multiplier change. That's how I figured it out. I agree that having a 50% rate be a 1x multiplier is counter-intuitive, but it doesn't take any special trick to figure that out, you just adjust the bar and watch the multiplier.



I definitely agree that the tax system it isn't what it appears to be at first glance. If it looks like there's "secret math" going on, the average player is going to get confused, frustrated, and stop playing, just as you said. Honestly, I don't think the entire system needs to be revamped in order to make sense. Simply improving the tool-tips and adding a more immersive tutorial should fix the issues.

Thanks for the very helpful article, Ghost. Some good stuff in this, I thought I had a basic hang of how this worked, but you proved me completely wrong.

Thanks for the explanation Ghost73.

Good clarification which helped alot.

Ghost73 wrote:
I'm curious to find out from the developers if the current taxation system was the intended system, or an accidental over-complication during design. From a player perspective, it just seems like too much you have to do to balance your checkbook. I think it would be more fun if it was redesigned in a way that was simpler and made sense.

Thank you for the insightful thread! If tax really works the way you've depicted it here, I too hope it changes to become more intuitive. Perhaps you can get the devs' feedback on this by linking this thread in the QA section?

I don't see why they would consider such intricacy as this in the game. Personally, I bought this to escape and for enjoyment, not to play with models that could perhaps deal with the Planet's current fiscal woes. I must say that it is far from endearing.



Edit: But many thanks for all the hard work that you put in to break it all down and explain it!

Nice posts thx for all the explanations :-)

kalanosh wrote:
So you have -57.2 from Tax Rate, does that mean that goes directly into your empire "bank"? If so where does all that extra Dust go?



That why I am confused, If my planet produce (basing all this off the second picture) 75.5 dust and tax takes away 57.2, am I gaining 75.5 dust as income for the empire (the money in the top left of the screen) or am I getting 57.2? Where is the other money going to then...

I am using a tax level of 35%. At 35%, the multiplier is x0.7.



Ok, so the amount of dust a system can produce at 50% (1x multiplier = no multiplier applied) is given as the sum of dust from planets, from trade, and from any improvements that produce a set amount of dust (like planetary institute). These are represented by the dust symbols with '+' next to them. We will call this the potential production.

So in the example above, the system has a potential production of 95 + 87.8 + 6 + 2 = 190.8 Dust.



Now the tax level comes into effect. In the example above, I have it set to 35% tax, which is a dust production multiplier of 0.7. This reduces the dust this system produces to 0.7 x potential.



The value next to 'From Tax Rate' in the above picture indicates how much the tax level changes the production of dust in your system. Despite being named 'From Tax Rate' your empire doesn't get this dust, it just reduces the amount of dust the system produces.



In this case, the tax level changes my dust production by -57.2 Dust. This value is calculated by taking the 'taxed' production (multiplier x potential) and subtracting the potential. So the game gets -57.2 Dust From Tax Rate from (0.7 x 190.8) - 190.8 = -57.2.



So the production of the system after taxes is 190.8 - 57.2 = 133.6 Dust. Or calculated using the multiplier: 0.7 x 190.8 = 133.6 Dust.



Now, this amount is further reduced by the upkeep of the system. This is represented by the 'From Improvements' with a '-' next to the number.



In this case, my upkeep is -58 Dust. So I subtract the upkeep from the production of the system after taxes

133.6 - 57.2 = 75.5 Dust. You will notice that this is the same as the value next to 'Current Value'.

'Current Value' is the value that goes to your empire (before empire bonuses).



Hoped this explanation helped



Edit: This information is on the first post so that it is easier to view the example picture and explanation together.

So you have -57.2 from Tax Rate, does that mean that goes directly into your empire "bank"? If so where does all that extra Dust go?



That why I am confused, If my planet produce (basing all this off the second picture) 75.5 dust and tax takes away 57.2, am I gaining 75.5 dust as income for the empire (the money in the top left of the screen) or am I getting 57.2? Where is the other money going to then...

Had missed this wonderfull insightfull thread so far. Maybe stick it somewhere more obvious?



I had never given this whole thing much thought. Lower taxation makes for more happines in startgame, so more productivity.

I usually don't play with my taxpercentage too much, just try and keep it in that sweet place where it produces the least amount of money(but at least some) and greatest amount of happiness.

I tried and explained this game to a friend the other day and discovered I had long taken it for granted that dust wasnt really earned by taxing any income or production, but was just generated somehow.

I'm a bit disappointed (with myself for not finding out and with the game for implementing it like this) to discover now that your taxpercentage also works on your dustincome from improvements.



Wouldn't the easiest way (rather than a total rehaul of the economic system) to fix this be to change something about the upkeep from these improvements?

If this upkeep would be less if your system is smaller (which makes perfect sense to me), dust improvements could be much more helpfull. Even with their income still being taxed I mean.

Vector78 wrote:
I've found the greatest success in carefully selecting my system improvements for low upkeep, and using ind-dust conversions in isolated and low-yield systems to support my empire. [...] It definitely seems like my Labor heroes are capable of producing more dust than my Corporate ones, and by stationing them well in governance posts across my empire, Labor heroes are backbones of my economy.

This. I have been playing a race which has much more dust+happiness problems, and I have found this is the best solution also. Maybe, if diplomacy becomes easier/better understood, the corporate tree may be useful; the first few levels are slightly useful for the dust/science boost.

Great post.



I've been investigating things related to this issue - it certainly seems like approval rating is a much more powerful engine of the economy in ES than tax rate, and since the two features are in opposition (raising taxes lowers approval, and vice-versa), I've found the greatest success in carefully selecting my system improvements for low upkeep, and using ind-dust conversions in isolated and low-yield systems to support my empire. This is further reinforced by how powerful the Labor hero abilities are for system governors, such as +25 industry on system and +10% industry on system compared to the unreliable and difficult to quantify trade route related bonuses of Corporate heroes. It definitely seems like my Labor heroes are capable of producing more dust than my Corporate ones, and by stationing them well in governance posts across my empire, Labor heroes are backbones of my economy. Meanwhile my systems grow faster to full population and my research advances faster due to the high approval rating I enjoy from low taxes.



I had also thought that 'dust per person' or things like careful sweeping were flat dust bonuses, not affected by the tax rate. It seems much less economically sensible to build any dust improvements now, at least until after you've built happiness-related improvements to allow a raising of the tax rate without lowering approval below Happy, if not Fervent.

I'm curious to find out from the developers if the current taxation system was the intended system, or an accidental over-complication during design. From a player perspective, it just seems like too much you have to do to balance your checkbook. I think it would be more fun if it was redesigned in a way that was simpler and made sense.

Ummm yeah forgot to chime when I read through this thread, but this system is absolutely bizarre. If they have other system in need of balancing that will end up causing this to make some sense then fine, but as it stand, you're giving a bunch of system improvements that you're told will make you money that actually won't unless you play as a complete tyrant. They at the very least need to have the system explained in the game or else it will keep causing huge problems. Of course the biggest issue with all of this is the"nano-tech" nature of dust. When it comes right down to it this nature makes it a horrible currency since it's function is that of a resource for production and medical applications. The idea of currency may need to be completely revised in order to make things less confusing. Dust is an amazing concept but it really shouldn't be shoehorned into everything that the devs can come up with. Nano-tech is nano-tech, setting it up as a medium for exchange makes absolutely no sense since the goal would be to not only horde it, but to also put it to practical use in order to gain advantages that no amount of gold/silver/jewels ever could.



I would propose that dust be turned into the driving force for conflict and intrigue rather than being a free flowing commodity used to purchase the very commodities that it should be being used to creation the first place. Until I read the dust lore today, I had the impression that it was like spice in Dune. This however is not the case. Dust is of course nano-machines that function like the Geth. This creates a situation where the ting that everyone wants is also the greatest threat to the galaxy. Think about how in Stargate Atalantis, enough Replicators got together to cover the surface of, or perhaps to actually form, a planet. Dust's potential far exceeds the confines of the games systems and raises some very interesting, even terrifying, questions. I would greatly prefer to see a new currency get made and the dust to become the stuff of power brokers and back room deals in a fashion that would much better show it's importance. As it stands, dust is simply used a a convenient way to tie all of the games systems together, in other words, it's a cop-out.